Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

A Question For The Atheists

Or former atheists, or anyone who has an answer they like. Every so often I like to see how far one of my fundamental beliefs can be stretched by intelligent opposition. Today I want you to try to convince me there is no God, WITHOUT referencing "the problem of evil." (In Islam God's ultimate goodness stems from the mercy of creation [the idea being it's better to exist than not exist], which contains both good and evil, so the existence of evil isn't the same problem it is in Christianity.)

Note that I'm also not asking why God need not exist--ie the "the universe works fine on its own" argument. I concede there is no need for God to exist; I want to know why God does not exist.

Nothing you say will offend me, except perhaps artistically, unless you flat out call me or any other theist retarded.

Posted by G. Willow Wilson | Permalink | 134 Comments | Technorati Trackbacks

anti-theists behaving badly

Huh. New guy at Balloon Juice Michael D likes to pick on girls.

Michael, as a reading comprehension public service I requote part of Willow's post to you:

Every so often I like to see how far one of my fundamental beliefs can be stretched by intelligent opposition.

Michael: Willow certainly got what she was looking for in the comment threads here at DW. Your comment thread at BJ, however, was notably lacking in the penultimate part of the statement above.

I don't believe in god

not the God who is a hypothesis, or the God who is a gene, or the God who is a hole, or any of the other Gods that those who freely choose disbelief continually insist is equivalent to the God in which I have, simply, faith.

I don't want to prove God. I don't need to prove God. However, many anti-theists (a distinct subset of atheists as a whole) seem to want to, and need to, disprove God. But all of these boil down to utilitarian descriptions of God - a functional God, one whose existence is defined by human semantic constructs such as Occam's Razor, or limited by human concepts of logic and reason (proof of negatives, the immovable stone, etc), or by linear time and space (creation and causation), or even by morality (why won't god heal amputees?). I agree; none of those gods exist, and I don't believe in any of them.

There is no god. Save Allah!

(cross-posted at City of Brass)

Faith or Proof

A commenter in Aziz's thread on God made this statement:

It's not so much that God cannot logically exist, it's that there is no proof. I require proof. That's the sort of thinker I am. Not much I can do about that.

I don't believe it is possible to live without any faith at all. All of these people that think they are on a higher intellectual plain, because they cannot simply believe in God without proof are fooling themselves.

A person simply can't live a fulfilled life without any faith at all. If you spend your life requiring proof without ever just having some faith, your life will suck.

FAITH — noun
  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
  3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
  4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
  6. A set of principles or beliefs.

You have to have faith or trust in things or people. You won't always have proof and even when you do, the proof can be wrong. Mistakes are made. Then what happens? Does your life collapse?

You don't want to believe in a higher being? Fine don't. But don't fool yourself into thinking that you don't because you require proof. You don't require proof, you don't want proof. You choose not to believe out of fear. It's easier to live your life however you please, if you don't have to answer for it in the end. Cowardice is what that is, not higher critical thinking.

Posted by Rosemary the Queen | Permalink | 99 Comments | Technorati Trackbacks

Stupid Athiests!

Since everyone else is all about their religion vs. atheism lately I figured I'd jump on the band wagon. And instead of making a title that an atheist might misread, misinterpret or mis-whatever and get insulted I figured to insult right out the door.

That's called being efficient.

So, what's Kevin D. got to say that will turn the world on its head and make believers out of the heathen masses? Not a darned thing.

Listen, I think we're all reasonable and intelligent people here. And we're passionate about what we believe. But, frankly, most of us don't know one another from Adam and things as deeply held as faith isn't something to be debated. That's to say, I've never head of a case where anyone was swayed either way by two people pounding at one another. Most of the time we root for our side and hiss at the other.

And I'm pointing at myself too here.

The best witnessing tool at our disposal is our life. We can speak a great game but if our life isn't something to be envied then what we say won't carry much weight with anyone. This goes for atheists and theists alike.

Let your life be your witness.

And that's the problem we have here at the D. World. We don't know one another beyond what words we read here. So, we let our rhetoric get out of control because we don't have the silent witness of our life to back us up. I mean, for example, Dean's said some stuff that, had I not known the guy, had I not been able to come to him on a personal level, I'd have written him off some time ago. But because we have that personal relationship, I've gone to his home, he's come to mine, I know that what I read may not be the whole story of what's going on.

I think we forget that. The words we read on the page is all we can know of most people here but we forget that it's a real thinking, breathing, feeling, flawed person writing them. And the five seconds or so we spend reading their words is nowhere near the totality of that individual or what may be going on behind the scenes that is coloring them. In most cases then we’re either unwilling or unable to say, “Hey, is everything okay?”

It's not something easy to do, believe me, but let's step back a moment and consider that we are not the possessors of all that can be known and, more than likely, we're probably wrong about a great deal we think we're right about.

I heard someone once say you can't get 75 years worth of experience until you've lived 75 years. I think we're often grasping beyond our experience because, well, we want to be right. It's only natural I suppose. No one certainly wants to be wrong! And when someone attacks that, especially some uppity dolt we've never met on a blog, we get defensive.

What I believe I know to be true is what I try to live and to attack what I believe I know to be true is to attack how I live. In many cases, we're not just attacking what someone believes about existence, we're also attacking how they live because the two cannot be separated. Remember that the next time you speak harshly of another's beliefs. You’re walking into their home and pronouncing judgment upon everything therein.

Speaking for myself here, I'm more open to the judgments of those I know in life, those I've shared a meal with, those I've invited into my real-life home, then "CrazyB0B452." And I'm more likely to return his words about my beliefs, no matter how innocently said, with vitriol because he doesn't know me and I don't know him.

So, what I'll endeavor to do in my life is establish those personal relationships. And I'll let my life speak for my beliefs. It's a challenge, we're an opinionated people, quick to insult and quick to be insulted, but I think it's a worthwhile goal.

Posted by Kevin D. | Permalink | 59 Comments | Technorati Trackbacks