I would expect that the 'as' here is not as = like but as = while. That would indicate a relationship between being able to forgive and being forgiven, but not require a parity. Which is a good thing, as I doubt many people can forgive nearly as well as they need to be forgiven.
Many forget that if we do not forgive we cannot be forgiven. Who are we to ask of the Father forgiveness when we ourselves do not forgive? Whose transgressions were greater? Ours against God or our fellow man against us? Indeed, to not forgive your fellow man is itself a sin.
Further, I believe that when we forgive we must forget. If we do not forget we never really forgave. When the Father forgives us He casts that memory from His mind as far as east is from west. Who are we to do any less?
We are called to forgive and forgive often. And as God casts the transgression from His memory so too should we.
And woe to the hypocrite that seeks revenge for transgressions done against them but asks for forgiveness when they are the transgressor!
In the original Greek the word is ὀφειλήματα, (opheilemata) in the Vulgate, debita, literally “debts” but, perhaps, “obligations” might be a better translation since the Greek word wasn't restricted to monetary debt.
The translation is complicated by the fact that in the different Gospels, the following text differs. Matthew continues by discussing the forgiveness of debts while Luke continues in discussing the forgiveness of sins.
BTW the word translated in “daily” i.e. “daily bread” is virtually a hapax legomenon, a word that only occurs once (appearing only in Matthew and Luke's versions of the prayer)and, in fact, nobody really knows what it means. Some have suggested that it was an accounting term. ἐπιούσιος (epiousios) has also been related to the word for substance, ousia, and may mean something like “necessary for life”. Wording in early non-canonical scriptures supports this translation.
The difficulty in translating even the most fundamental and universal of Christian prayers is one of the things that makes me skeptical about Biblical literalists.
Dave Justus: There are multiple translations, and they all read the same to me: you're asking God to forgive you to the same extent that you forgive others. Which is a heck of a challenge.
Dave S: Agreed. By the way, in the mainline Protestant church I was raised in, the line was "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." I like that version, but "trespass" is the most frequently used in English that I've seen.
There is no universally embraced translation of the Bible. That's one thing the Muslims have on us: they just keep their original Arabic version of the Koran and tell you you should learn Arabic if you really want to understand it. (Although we know now that there were divergent versions of the Koran in the earliest years.)
Al-Ghazali teaches that one should forgive another's injustices committed against oneself, but that one has no right to forgive anyone for injustices committed against others. I think this is wise counsel, and (to me) it seems rather in line with traditional Christian teachings.
I've been thinking about that since you posted it, and I think I have an answer: if you practice forgiving others, it becomes easier and easier to do, and at some point you start to notice that the burden of forgiveness is a lot lighter than the burden of resentment, i.e. holding a grudge.
Jesus did say that his yoke was light, did he not?
I find that asking God to relieve me of the burden of resentment is rather liberating. It takes work, but it gets easier as you go.
DanielH: I have to think on that, but, holding a grudge against someone for something they did to a friend or relative seems unhealthy to me at some level. I guess it would be a question of context.
DanielH: I have to think on that, but, holding a grudge against someone for something they did to a friend or relative seems unhealthy to me at some level. I guess it would be a question of context.
Dean, it is not a question of "holding a grudge," but more one of punishment: if someone assaults my neighbor, I should turn him into the police, not keep quiet and pardon him, against the wishes of my neighbor.
Similarly, according to Christian tradition, if someone hits me, I should turn the other cheek. If someone hits my neighbor, however, I should not hold my neighbor down and tell his assailant to hit his other cheek.
The church I was grew up in made the switch from “debts” to “trespasses” around the mid 70’s. It was officially a United Methodist church, but it had started as Brethren, and made a slow transition starting in the 1910’s (a VERY slow transition, I guess).
I remember some grumbling about the word change at the time, but eventually everyone embraced it. But it caused some problems for some of the older folks, who had been saying “debts” by rote all their lives.
My grandfather was the closest thing to an elder in the church. He always sat in the front row (on the male side), and he tended the “score board” that listed that day’s attendance and offering collection. When I was around 10 or 12 years old, I left my parent’s side and started to sit with my grandfather.
One Sunday a few months into the transition, my grandfather slipped and said “debts” instead of “trespasses”. And with impeccable timing, in the brief silence following the word “trespasses”, he blurted out a not so silent exclamation of “SH!T!”
Some chuckles ensued, but the prayer continued till completion.
After the “Amen”, the preacher looked down at my grandfather and said, “Jake, I don’t know if that qualifies as a debt or a trespass, but rest assured, it is forgiven!”
There are two meanings of easy which we have to distinguish:
(1) Not requiring much effort.
(2) Not tiring one out much.
I submit that it can become easy in sense #2, but never in sense #1.
I'm reminded of a quote by some famous cyclist (according to google, Greg Lemond): "It doesn't get any easier. You just go faster."
Being good is work. It's true that as one becomes a better person, you have only the work of being good, and not that plus the work of struggle against your sinful habits. But even the most holy creatures are always tempted; but they always overcome their temptation.
But it must be born in mind that not all sin is caused by weakness of the flesh; otherwise angels could not sin.
Al-Ghazali teaches that one should forgive another's injustices committed against oneself, but that one has no right to forgive anyone for injustices committed against others. I think this is wise counsel, and (to me) it seems rather in line with traditional Christian teachings.
Very wise, and I concur, both with what you said and with what you meant. We forgive debts and we offer Mercy, we do not excuse evil or forget about Justice.
I've been thinking about that since you posted it, and I think I have an answer: if you practice forgiving others, it becomes easier and easier to do, and at some point you start to notice that the burden of forgiveness is a lot lighter than the burden of resentment, i.e. holding a grudge.
Jesus did say that his yoke was light, did he not?
I find that asking God to relieve me of the burden of resentment is rather liberating. It takes work, but it gets easier as you go.
That too is wise, though I also understand Chris' point. Hard remains always hard and without practice the muscles atrophy, but with exercise the limbs grow strong, as does the soul.
It is always hard to lift the heavy object, but wiht exercise the heavy object becomes far less the burden.
There's the literal understanding of the phrase but I think another one should be considered. The qualities of spirit that come from forgiveness, like a muscle, grow with exercise.
The one thing this phrase should not be considered is a bargain with God or an attempt at compelling God. God may forgive us our failings or he may not. In the prayer, Jesus urges God to do so. But is that really the point?
Back in July 2007, Ann Althouse blogged about a Hindu priest giving the invocation in the senate and the uproar it caused. I, too, thought it was a beautiful prayer and followed very closely to how Christ said we should pray.
"We meditate on the transcendental glory of the deity supreme, who is inside the heart of the earth, inside the life of the sky and inside the soul of heaven. May he stimulate and illuminate our minds. Lead us from the unreal to real, from darkness to light, and from death to immortality. May we be protected together. May we be nourished together. May we work together with great vigor. May our study be enlightening."
I made mention of that in the comments and was sort of blasted by someone for liking the "pretty words." I didn't carry on with the argument, but I, still, stand by my statement. As I noted in the comments, I would have been more offended if this had been said by either a male or female Episcopalian priest (or other) who would have tried to be more encompassing and general, whereas here was a man who, although his belief is pantheistic/polytheistic, narrowed it down to the "One" first of all and did follow the Lord's example for what and how we should pray.
After all, in the end, it matters not who I think he or anyone else is praying to, but who I am praying to.
McKiernan: How fracking cool! The quote you give is great, but you also found something I've been looking for for some time now, a copy of the New American Bible online! It's one of those that the biblegateway people don't list, unfortunately. That's going in the bookmarks!
It has always seemed to me that the people who are most unforgiving are the ones who have been most insistently reluctant to forgive themselves.
Children are free because they don't carry guilt. Many religions believe that at age seven a cloak is laid upon a child and that from that point on they have a karmic burden--that you can virtually see the weight of the cloak slightly alter the child's posture.
The idea that God will not forgive you if you do not forgive others seems to me as a non-Catholic to be something different in the Catholic line of thought.
This may be a rather liberal interpretation, but I believe not-forgiving to be a sin; sins are forgiven by repentence, and not-forgiving is unrepentent sin. It is a little redundant to say God will not forgive unrepentent sin.
As a non-Catholic, I do not believe salvation is overwritten by sin. (Not to say this is strictly a Catholic belief, but I think it originated there, or at least was there first). I don't believe anyone is capable of unsaving what God has saved. The verses that say drunks, liars and homosexuals won't get to heaven I suspect means that you can't carry that part of your life or identify in the Holy presence because it literally won't survive.
If I'm off base here, it might be fodder for one of your "what is religion" posts.
(Sorry, the though was there in the previous post but not written)
As a non-Catholic, I do not believe salvation is overwritten by sin. (Not to say this is strictly a Catholic belief, but I think it originated there, or at least was there first). I don't believe anyone is capable of unsaving what God has saved. The verses that say drunks, liars and homosexuals won't get to heaven I suspect means that you can't carry that part of your life or identify in the Holy presence because it literally won't survive.
I'm trying to say that even those who sin get to go to be with God, even with unforgiven sin, but their works and life will be purified as if by fire that burns out what cannot exist in the presence of God. There might not be much of you left, but some "part" will continue eternally.
2.27.2008 5:09pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
When is it ever easy?
Further, I believe that when we forgive we must forget. If we do not forget we never really forgave. When the Father forgives us He casts that memory from His mind as far as east is from west. Who are we to do any less?
We are called to forgive and forgive often. And as God casts the transgression from His memory so too should we.
And woe to the hypocrite that seeks revenge for transgressions done against them but asks for forgiveness when they are the transgressor!
The translation is complicated by the fact that in the different Gospels, the following text differs. Matthew continues by discussing the forgiveness of debts while Luke continues in discussing the forgiveness of sins.
BTW the word translated in “daily” i.e. “daily bread” is virtually a hapax legomenon, a word that only occurs once (appearing only in Matthew and Luke's versions of the prayer)and, in fact, nobody really knows what it means. Some have suggested that it was an accounting term. ἐπιούσιος (epiousios) has also been related to the word for substance, ousia, and may mean something like “necessary for life”. Wording in early non-canonical scriptures supports this translation.
The difficulty in translating even the most fundamental and universal of Christian prayers is one of the things that makes me skeptical about Biblical literalists.
A challenge to be embraced.
There is no universally embraced translation of the Bible. That's one thing the Muslims have on us: they just keep their original Arabic version of the Koran and tell you you should learn Arabic if you really want to understand it. (Although we know now that there were divergent versions of the Koran in the earliest years.)
When is it ever easy?
I've been thinking about that since you posted it, and I think I have an answer: if you practice forgiving others, it becomes easier and easier to do, and at some point you start to notice that the burden of forgiveness is a lot lighter than the burden of resentment, i.e. holding a grudge.
Jesus did say that his yoke was light, did he not?
I find that asking God to relieve me of the burden of resentment is rather liberating. It takes work, but it gets easier as you go.
DanielH: I have to think on that, but, holding a grudge against someone for something they did to a friend or relative seems unhealthy to me at some level. I guess it would be a question of context.
Dean, it is not a question of "holding a grudge," but more one of punishment: if someone assaults my neighbor, I should turn him into the police, not keep quiet and pardon him, against the wishes of my neighbor.
The church I was grew up in made the switch from “debts” to “trespasses” around the mid 70’s. It was officially a United Methodist church, but it had started as Brethren, and made a slow transition starting in the 1910’s (a VERY slow transition, I guess).
I remember some grumbling about the word change at the time, but eventually everyone embraced it. But it caused some problems for some of the older folks, who had been saying “debts” by rote all their lives.
My grandfather was the closest thing to an elder in the church. He always sat in the front row (on the male side), and he tended the “score board” that listed that day’s attendance and offering collection. When I was around 10 or 12 years old, I left my parent’s side and started to sit with my grandfather.
One Sunday a few months into the transition, my grandfather slipped and said “debts” instead of “trespasses”. And with impeccable timing, in the brief silence following the word “trespasses”, he blurted out a not so silent exclamation of “SH!T!”
Some chuckles ensued, but the prayer continued till completion.
After the “Amen”, the preacher looked down at my grandfather and said, “Jake, I don’t know if that qualifies as a debt or a trespass, but rest assured, it is forgiven!”
There are two meanings of easy which we have to distinguish:
(1) Not requiring much effort.
(2) Not tiring one out much.
I submit that it can become easy in sense #2, but never in sense #1.
I'm reminded of a quote by some famous cyclist (according to google, Greg Lemond): "It doesn't get any easier. You just go faster."
Being good is work. It's true that as one becomes a better person, you have only the work of being good, and not that plus the work of struggle against your sinful habits. But even the most holy creatures are always tempted; but they always overcome their temptation.
But it must be born in mind that not all sin is caused by weakness of the flesh; otherwise angels could not sin.
Very wise, and I concur, both with what you said and with what you meant. We forgive debts and we offer Mercy, we do not excuse evil or forget about Justice.
That too is wise, though I also understand Chris' point. Hard remains always hard and without practice the muscles atrophy, but with exercise the limbs grow strong, as does the soul.
It is always hard to lift the heavy object, but wiht exercise the heavy object becomes far less the burden.
If you forgive others their transgressions, your
heavenly Father will forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, neither will
your Father forgive your transgressions.
The one thing this phrase should not be considered is a bargain with God or an attempt at compelling God. God may forgive us our failings or he may not. In the prayer, Jesus urges God to do so. But is that really the point?
After all, in the end, it matters not who I think he or anyone else is praying to, but who I am praying to.
It has always seemed to me that the people who are most unforgiving are the ones who have been most insistently reluctant to forgive themselves.
Children are free because they don't carry guilt. Many religions believe that at age seven a cloak is laid upon a child and that from that point on they have a karmic burden--that you can virtually see the weight of the cloak slightly alter the child's posture.
This may be a rather liberal interpretation, but I believe not-forgiving to be a sin; sins are forgiven by repentence, and not-forgiving is unrepentent sin. It is a little redundant to say God will not forgive unrepentent sin.
As a non-Catholic, I do not believe salvation is overwritten by sin. (Not to say this is strictly a Catholic belief, but I think it originated there, or at least was there first). I don't believe anyone is capable of unsaving what God has saved. The verses that say drunks, liars and homosexuals won't get to heaven I suspect means that you can't carry that part of your life or identify in the Holy presence because it literally won't survive.
If I'm off base here, it might be fodder for one of your "what is religion" posts.
I'm trying to say that even those who sin get to go to be with God, even with unforgiven sin, but their works and life will be purified as if by fire that burns out what cannot exist in the presence of God. There might not be much of you left, but some "part" will continue eternally.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.