and, it should be noted that driving the Arabs out of the West Bank is explicitly the stated goal of the settler movement - and Likud. Aiel Sharon was in fact seen by the settlers as "one of us". So your little scnario already happened.
I analogize Hamas to the IRA/Sin Fein. Not a pleasant bunch, but once they are part of the political system rather than outside it, they become mainstreamed. Ultimately violence works against their own interests as well.
driving the Arabs out of the West Bank is explicitly the stated goal of the settler movement
Well, then clearly the settler movement does not control the Israeil government, since there are still 2.5 million Palestinians there.
So your little scnario already happened.
Really? You'll have to remind me when the mass executions of Arab Israelis and deliberate targeting of civilians under Likud happened; there seem to be quite a few Palestinians left in Israeli territory.
Also, there are over a million Arab Israelis. How many Jews live in Hamas-controlled areas?
You said, "Hamas doesn't have the means to do any of the things you've just mentioned."
Dave said, in his hypothetical, that the government was "explicitly committed to driving all the Arabs out of Israel..."
So it's your contention that Hamas cannot be committed to driving all of the jews out of the west bank? Can you explain why they're incapable of such a commitment? (Note: being committed to something does not require the ability to do it; it only requires the desire to do it.)
The IRA/SinnFein was a long standing organization that was formed after hundreds of years of British colonization of Ireland. They became most active after British mismanagement and persecution resulted in the deaths of about a million Irish due to famine.
In their early years, they were soldiers, but in the late 20th century , they were mobsters and thugs who killed or kneecapped their neighbors for various random reasons.
Despite those hundred years of oppression and despite the death of more than a million Irish nationals, the IRA never wanted to drive the British out of England, nor would they do so even though they now probably have the means. But, then again, they weren't being funded by foreign governments as a way of waging war against Britain.
No, Kevin; my point was that behaving like a hypocritical ass means being taken less seriously. I was holding a mirror up to Willow's behavior as an example. If she's entitled to say X, I'm entitled to repeat it as X1.
Also, the distinction between behavior and identity -- between sin and personhood, to put it terms you might find more familiar -- is (among other categorizations) deeply and profoundly christian. And when you attempt to negatively define my personhood, rather than my behavior, you fail at it.
and, it should be noted that driving the Arabs out of the West Bank is explicitly the stated goal of the settler movement - and Likud.
and yet, historically, it has been the israeli right wing - not the left - which has engaged in more concessions. rhetoric to the contrary.
its counterintuitive, but makes sense. public opinion factors highly in any democracy, so the right is seen as already-tough, which gives them room to act. conversely, the left always feels obligated to 'butch up'.
and Likud. Aiel Sharon was in fact seen by the settlers as "one of us". So your little scnario already happened.
Except for the fact that Sharon turned on the Settler movement and evicted thousands of them from the West Bank and Gaza, which shows that even the "evil" Sharon was not above pragmatism.
But that's the core of this issue. The Israeli's (even the most hate-filled ones) make concession after concession while the Palestinians make no concessions and just ramp up the MDK. Knowing these facts (and the Hamas charter) how can any honest, intelligent person argue for Israel to negotiate when Hamass won't even promise to look into changing one word in their charter?
Thank you for noticing I decided not to bring out the big guns for you.
Willow's theological bend doesn't exclude her from disbelieving an argument she feels doesn't have merit. Dave was arguing a point of political policy that Willow felt was in error. Disagree with her if you wish but to bring her theological beliefs into a topic where it doesn't apply is dishonest.
99% of the people on the planet hold some kind of theological worldview. That you wish to discount their opinions on non-theological issues because of this is your decision. I'm sure the guy in the mirror thinks you're really quite brilliant and would enjoy your company better anyway.
And when you attempt to negatively define my personhood, rather than my behavior, you fail at it.
How one behaves is an expression of self. You don't get to misbehave and then cry foul when someone believes you've done so because it is who you are. If you're concerned about my observation of your person-hood I suggest you take more care in choosing your words in the future.
Israel already is attempting to kill off the Palestinians via a severe embargo and a walled in Gaza Strip. Rational of Israel? To protect itself from suicide bombers, over 2 million people are without reliable medicine, electricity, clean water, steady education--nothing. Israel is committing an apartheid right now. Show me proof that they aren't.
However at the same time I don't deny that there's poverty in Gaza; there is. But that's cause and effect. The Palestinians in Gaza chose to be ruled by Hamas; they've been blockaded because of that choice, and their economy is suffering as a result. They can choose to end the blockade by throwing out Hamas. Do that and their economy and prospects will improve.
But until they take that step, I do not feel compelled by their suffering. It does not move me in the same way that suffering in Burma or Kenya moves me. The Kenyans who have died have done so because of their tribal origin. They had no choice in the matter. The Palestinians do. They've always had the choice: Coexist or Fight. They've always chosen the latter path and suffered accordingly.
I once sympathized with them, but time after time seeing them choose the gun over the olive branch has hardened my heart to their plight.
Thank you for noticing I decided not to bring out the big guns for you.
You seem to have misunderstood. I meant it was bad for you to engage in such unchristianly mean-spirited behavior. Because when you do so, you fail at being christian.
And now, you're even bearing false witness against me. I clearly addressed only that one particular type of argument, not people's entire worldviews. But under your misrepresentatory exaggeration, what I said stops making any kind of rational sense ITFP.
Bearing false witness like that. Shame on you. That males the baby Jesus cry, you know. You're making the baby Jesus cry now. I hope you're happy with yourself.
But if any of my comments are too complex and abstruse for you, JBI, just explicitly point out whatever I post that you're not understanding, and I'll gladly try to explain it at a level more appropriate to your particular intellectual abilities.
Trust me, it's not lack of understanding that goes on reading your posts. It's more like watching a third grader make a "doodie" joke and think they're the height of cleverness.
Anyway, troll, I'll leave you alone and unwanted, and respond to a previous comment.
Kristen
Israel is committing an apartheid right now. Show me proof that they aren't.
There are "Palestinians," other Muslims, and members of other faiths who are all citizens of Israel with all rights, and only missing one obligation. They serve in the government, they serve in the military, run businesses, go to schools, raise families, and generally live with and in peace with the Jewish Israeli's. The difference between them and those across the wall is only that they don't want to replace Israel with a fundamentalist theocracy built on the bodies of the Jews.
Do you think the U.S. commits "apartheid" against the KKK and Stormfront for not allowing their ridiculous racist views to hold sway?
Aziz said:
"it should be noted that driving the Arabs out of the West Bank is explicitly the stated goal of the settler movement - and Likud."
This is simply untrue. The only party to have such a platform was the small Moledet party (as well as even smaller parties which tended not to get into the Knesset), and even in Moledet, some politicians (such as Benny Elon, the last head of the Moledet party before it merged with other parties) openly stated that they think that this is unrealistic and advocated different solutions.
The only agreed-upon (let alone explicitly stated) goal of the settler movement is (surprise!) to settle the West Bank and Gaza.
"Israel already is attempting to kill off the Palestinians via a severe embargo and a walled in Gaza Strip."
This boils down to the fact that Israel does not let Gazans cross the border into Israel to find jobs.
The US does not let Mexicans cross the border into the US to find jobs.
By the way, where did you get the idea that Israel is trying to "kill off" the Palestinians? Do you have a source? Allegations of attempted genocide should be backed up with a source.
"Rational of Israel? To protect itself from suicide bombers"
So it's NOT that Israel is trying to kill off the Palestinians, is it?
"over 2 million people are without reliable medicine, electricity, clean water, steady education--nothing."
Why can't they just buy medicine, fuel for the electric plant and water from Egypt? How exactly is Israel preventing Gazans from getting an education?
(You do realize that Israel is supplying the large majority of Gaza's electricity? and that the UN subsidizes schools in Gaza?
They're poor because they can't get jobs in Israel? I hear the economy in Mexico isn't too great.
"Israel is committing an apartheid right now."
So's the US.
By your standards anyway.
(And Mexicans don't even blow themselves up)
Israel already is attempting to kill off the Palestinians via a severe embargo and a walled in Gaza Strip. Rational of Israel? To protect itself from suicide bombers, over 2 million people are without reliable medicine, electricity, clean water, steady education--nothing. Israel is committing an apartheid right now. Show me proof that they aren't.
Almost 20% of Israel's population is Arab, with full rights (and exemption from conscription) including several seats in parliament.
What you have written shows either a profound ignorance of Israeli life, or a willingness to slander in defiance of the facts (something that will not win you many arguments here.)
2.25.2008 1:58pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
I analogize Hamas to the IRA/Sin Fein. Not a pleasant bunch, but once they are part of the political system rather than outside it, they become mainstreamed. Ultimately violence works against their own interests as well.
1) executes Palestinian "collaborators" and Jews
2) fires missiles into Israeli civilian areas
3) has the stated aim of destroying Israel
Are you arguing that their relative incompetence in some way ameliorates their evil and makes them more worthy of negotiation?
You're creating a fiction and asking people to respond to it like fact.
I'm asking if we would ask Arabs to negotiate with Israel if Israel acted like Hamas.
Very different goals. The IRA wanted independence from British rule. Hamas has independence already. They want to destroy Israel.
Well, then clearly the settler movement does not control the Israeil government, since there are still 2.5 million Palestinians there.
So your little scnario already happened.
Really? You'll have to remind me when the mass executions of Arab Israelis and deliberate targeting of civilians under Likud happened; there seem to be quite a few Palestinians left in Israeli territory.
Also, there are over a million Arab Israelis. How many Jews live in Hamas-controlled areas?
You said, "Hamas doesn't have the means to do any of the things you've just mentioned."
Dave said, in his hypothetical, that the government was "explicitly committed to driving all the Arabs out of Israel..."
So it's your contention that Hamas cannot be committed to driving all of the jews out of the west bank? Can you explain why they're incapable of such a commitment? (Note: being committed to something does not require the ability to do it; it only requires the desire to do it.)
In their early years, they were soldiers, but in the late 20th century , they were mobsters and thugs who killed or kneecapped their neighbors for various random reasons.
Despite those hundred years of oppression and despite the death of more than a million Irish nationals, the IRA never wanted to drive the British out of England, nor would they do so even though they now probably have the means. But, then again, they weren't being funded by foreign governments as a way of waging war against Britain.
You're a theist; you don't get to object to that.
You're an ass; you don't get to be taken seriously.
Also, the distinction between behavior and identity -- between sin and personhood, to put it terms you might find more familiar -- is (among other categorizations) deeply and profoundly christian. And when you attempt to negatively define my personhood, rather than my behavior, you fail at it.
and yet, historically, it has been the israeli right wing - not the left - which has engaged in more concessions. rhetoric to the contrary.
its counterintuitive, but makes sense. public opinion factors highly in any democracy, so the right is seen as already-tough, which gives them room to act. conversely, the left always feels obligated to 'butch up'.
Except for the fact that Sharon turned on the Settler movement and evicted thousands of them from the West Bank and Gaza, which shows that even the "evil" Sharon was not above pragmatism.
But that's the core of this issue. The Israeli's (even the most hate-filled ones) make concession after concession while the Palestinians make no concessions and just ramp up the MDK. Knowing these facts (and the Hamas charter) how can any honest, intelligent person argue for Israel to negotiate when Hamass won't even promise to look into changing one word in their charter?
Agree with it or not, that's a priceless comeback.
Ryan
Thank you for noticing I decided not to bring out the big guns for you.
Willow's theological bend doesn't exclude her from disbelieving an argument she feels doesn't have merit. Dave was arguing a point of political policy that Willow felt was in error. Disagree with her if you wish but to bring her theological beliefs into a topic where it doesn't apply is dishonest.
99% of the people on the planet hold some kind of theological worldview. That you wish to discount their opinions on non-theological issues because of this is your decision. I'm sure the guy in the mirror thinks you're really quite brilliant and would enjoy your company better anyway.
How one behaves is an expression of self. You don't get to misbehave and then cry foul when someone believes you've done so because it is who you are. If you're concerned about my observation of your person-hood I suggest you take more care in choosing your words in the future.
/snark
Copied verbatim from Aziz's thread:
However at the same time I don't deny that there's poverty in Gaza; there is. But that's cause and effect. The Palestinians in Gaza chose to be ruled by Hamas; they've been blockaded because of that choice, and their economy is suffering as a result. They can choose to end the blockade by throwing out Hamas. Do that and their economy and prospects will improve.
But until they take that step, I do not feel compelled by their suffering. It does not move me in the same way that suffering in Burma or Kenya moves me. The Kenyans who have died have done so because of their tribal origin. They had no choice in the matter. The Palestinians do. They've always had the choice: Coexist or Fight. They've always chosen the latter path and suffered accordingly.
I once sympathized with them, but time after time seeing them choose the gun over the olive branch has hardened my heart to their plight.
You seem to have misunderstood. I meant it was bad for you to engage in such unchristianly mean-spirited behavior. Because when you do so, you fail at being christian.
And now, you're even bearing false witness against me. I clearly addressed only that one particular type of argument, not people's entire worldviews. But under your misrepresentatory exaggeration, what I said stops making any kind of rational sense ITFP.
Bearing false witness like that. Shame on you. That males the baby Jesus cry, you know. You're making the baby Jesus cry now. I hope you're happy with yourself.
Stops? When did it start?
But if any of my comments are too complex and abstruse for you, JBI, just explicitly point out whatever I post that you're not understanding, and I'll gladly try to explain it at a level more appropriate to your particular intellectual abilities.
Trust me, it's not lack of understanding that goes on reading your posts. It's more like watching a third grader make a "doodie" joke and think they're the height of cleverness.
Anyway, troll, I'll leave you alone and unwanted, and respond to a previous comment.
Kristen
Israel is committing an apartheid right now. Show me proof that they aren't.
There are "Palestinians," other Muslims, and members of other faiths who are all citizens of Israel with all rights, and only missing one obligation. They serve in the government, they serve in the military, run businesses, go to schools, raise families, and generally live with and in peace with the Jewish Israeli's. The difference between them and those across the wall is only that they don't want to replace Israel with a fundamentalist theocracy built on the bodies of the Jews.
Do you think the U.S. commits "apartheid" against the KKK and Stormfront for not allowing their ridiculous racist views to hold sway?
No more than you deserve, my sweet.
"it should be noted that driving the Arabs out of the West Bank is explicitly the stated goal of the settler movement - and Likud."
This is simply untrue. The only party to have such a platform was the small Moledet party (as well as even smaller parties which tended not to get into the Knesset), and even in Moledet, some politicians (such as Benny Elon, the last head of the Moledet party before it merged with other parties) openly stated that they think that this is unrealistic and advocated different solutions.
The only agreed-upon (let alone explicitly stated) goal of the settler movement is (surprise!) to settle the West Bank and Gaza.
This boils down to the fact that Israel does not let Gazans cross the border into Israel to find jobs.
The US does not let Mexicans cross the border into the US to find jobs.
By the way, where did you get the idea that Israel is trying to "kill off" the Palestinians? Do you have a source? Allegations of attempted genocide should be backed up with a source.
"Rational of Israel? To protect itself from suicide bombers"
So it's NOT that Israel is trying to kill off the Palestinians, is it?
"over 2 million people are without reliable medicine, electricity, clean water, steady education--nothing."
Why can't they just buy medicine, fuel for the electric plant and water from Egypt? How exactly is Israel preventing Gazans from getting an education?
(You do realize that Israel is supplying the large majority of Gaza's electricity? and that the UN subsidizes schools in Gaza?
They're poor because they can't get jobs in Israel? I hear the economy in Mexico isn't too great.
"Israel is committing an apartheid right now."
So's the US.
By your standards anyway.
(And Mexicans don't even blow themselves up)
Almost 20% of Israel's population is Arab, with full rights (and exemption from conscription) including several seats in parliament.
What you have written shows either a profound ignorance of Israeli life, or a willingness to slander in defiance of the facts (something that will not win you many arguments here.)
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.