Shari'a! Boo!
Aziz P
My friend thabet, a muslim blogger formerly in the UK, has linked to several excellent commentaries on the matter of Archbishop Williams' remarks regarding Shari'a. The question is really what kind of game is Williams playing? Is he supremely saavy, or astonishingly naive?
First, this by Cranmer:
Dr Williams did not advocate Shari’a law; he said quite distinctly that ‘aspects’ of it might be incorporated into British law. He said other religions enjoyed tolerance of their own laws, and called for ‘constructive accommodation’ with Muslim practice in areas such as marital disputes. But he stressed that it could never be allowed to take precedence over an individual's rights as a citizen. This is an important distinction. [...] the Archbishop’s naivety is astonishing. He treats Radio 4 as if it were an Oxford theological college, and assumes that his audience is made up of academics with the ability to dissect and analyse words with his professorial precision.
Shari’a may be a complex and convoluted legal system, but it means only one thing in the UK: oppression, barbarism and injustice. This judgement may in itself be unjust, but the word is alien and, like ‘jihad’, has taken on its own meaning. Shari’a law is in fact profoundly complex, and varies in interpretation and application from Islamic community to Islamic community.
Cranmer goes on to make the necessary distinction between "private" and "public" Shari'a, noting that the former, not the latter, is acceptable as a framework for inclusion into law. That the archbishop failed to clarify this in his remarks, but rather treated Shari'a as a single static unit, is astonishing.
Another blog, Global Dashboard, notes:
As ever, when you actually listen to what he says, he comes across as thoughtful, considered and nuanced; he points, for instance, to the fact that Orthodox Jewish courts already exist in the UK. But I can’t help wondering whether this is a pretty bad error of judgement in communication terms. Even the BBC’s own coverage of the story on BBC News Online loses most of the nuances; I’ve listened to the whole interview, and I’m not sure that I fully understand where Williams is going with this.
The risk here is that what would have been fine as an article in Prospect, say, or the London Review of Books, ignites a firestorm by dint of appearing first on a broadcast medium, followed by immediate pickup on the internet. Just wait for the reactions from the US right wing blogosphere to roll in as they gleefully take this as confirmation of all their predictions about dhimmitude. It’s the “unavoidable” bit that’ll really drive the story. They’re going to have a hard few days’ work in the Lambeth Palace press office…
Rowan Williams bridles when anyone suggests that he is the Anglican church’s equivalent of the Pope. But he has made the same mistake in discussing sharia law that Pope Benedict XVI made in his ill-fated foray on the subject of Islam at the University of Regensburg two years ago, which sparked protests around the world, the murder of a nun and much else.
The error is assuming that the leader of a major church has the same intellectual freedom that he had when he was merely an eminent theologian. The cold fact is that the semiotics are entirely different. An academic may call for a nuanced renegotiation of society’s attitudes to the internal laws of religious communities. But when the Archbishop of Canterbury does that the headline follows, as night follows day: “Sharia law in UK is unavoidable, says Archbishop.”
And finally, at the Guardian:
Dr Williams, characteristically, is interested in the arguments over what sharia law actually says. The rest of the country is more interested in whether and how it might be enforced. Only if Islamic law can be reduced to a game played between consenting adults can it be acceptably enforced in this country; and that’s not, I think, how it is understood by its practitioners. Let’s hope I’m wrong.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Archbishop Williams roundup
- Shari'a! Boo!
- Why, Oh Why? (Updated)









I'm often depressed by how little effort people make to understand something before they start talking about it.
Look, it's all very well to say things likebut when women are being hunted down and killed, people are going to take a different view of this issue than, say, kosher laws or the Catholic practice of not eating meat on Fridays or whatever.
A fair point.
And before anyone gets smart and says, "Well, in the Old Testament..." let's be clear that stoning (or whatever else) has been out of style for a few centuries now.
Honor killings are going on today.
True, but can anyone point out a version of Shari'a that approves them?
That is not to say that I think Williams' proposal is a good one. Israel and India both have polycentric personal legal codes, but I'm not sure that Britain want to go down that road. If what he meant was Islamic courts whose only power to sanction was the approval or disapproval of the religious community, then it seems those already exist. Or, if all he wanted to do was to give Muslim marriages an analogous legal treatment that Jewish and Christian ones receive, then he probably could have used a less charged word than Shari'a. But, as others have pointed out elsewhere, it is not as if British law is about to refuse to divorce Catholics -- so why should it give preferential treatment to Muslim law?
Define prove? And I ask that not trying to be smart. There are people that profess that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. There's a whole train of apologetic thought in liberal churches that buy into this. There are Christian's they deny the divinity of Christ. There are Christian's that think abortion is permissible.
We're all supposed to be reading the same book yet we somehow come to vastly differing conclusions.
So, how does one prove this thing? I can quote you two passages out of the Koran right now:
And:
24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”
These things are practiced today in Muslim nations. Case after case after case can be sourced. But does this prove anything to anyone that doesn't want to see it? How can it?
It is not my contention that all of the punishments suggested in the Qur'an survive scrutiny by present day standards. However, the passages you quote prescribe 1) house arrest and 2) flogging. Thus, not "honor killings." Islamic law normally follows a rather strict methodology, and often a rule is derived from reading multiple passages from the Qur'an and hadiths in light of each other, so it is not enough just to quote individual passages from the Qur'an to show what Islamic law does or does not approve of. You have to look at the actual texts of the jurists themselves. But by "proof" I didn't mean anything perfect. I just wondered if you or anyone else had some credible evidence that honor killings specifically are accepted by any major interpretations of Shari'a/Islamic law.
And it's utterly fascinating to me that fundamentalist Christians who are so hot on supposedly interpreting the Bible "literally" (which they don't actually do) will declare that the parts of the Bible which condone rape and mass slaughter can be considered irrelevant, but, any part of any interpretation of the Koran which calls for Old Testament style justice is completely relevant and should somehow be "debated."
Tell you what: show me the Muslims who believe that honor killings are part of Islam, and I'll show you the Muslims (including scholars) who say it is not. Now what? Should we "debate?" Debate what?
Saudi Law Applied in Texas, Minnesota Courts.
i need a theme song now, set to the music of Shaft.
Yes and no. Technically it's more of a tribal issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing
The problem is, sharia is intended to prevent situations where a woman might be "dishonored," so some honor killings are justified as "punishment" for violating sharia.
Similarly, in certain cultures, such as Palestine, a rape victim may be seen as being at fault, and marked for death if, prior to the rape, she failed to adhere to strict segregation between males and females
And sharia tends to let honor killers off lightly:
Islamic religious authorities prohibit extra-legal punishments such as honor killings, since they consider the practice to be a cultural issue.[31] They believe that since certain pre-Islamic cultures have influence over a number of Muslims, murderers of females use Islam to justify honor killing, but claim that there is no support for the act in the religion itself. The death penalty cannot always be applied in the Sharia as murders are a type of "qisas" ("retaliation") crime 2-178. This means that the deceased's family should be offered the choice of capital punishment or "diyya" ("blood money") and no execution can take place without them opting for death. Because a relative(s) is usually responsible for the honor killing, it is unlikely that the deceased's family will punish one of their own for the crime.[32]
This is something all cultures have to deal with on the way to enlightened liberalism. When the first Christian missionaries came to the Nordic regions, one of the first things they did was tell them to stop leaving their unwanted female infants to die in the cold. When the British encountered the Indian practice of sati, they told those who murdered widows by ancient custom that they would either stop or be subject to the British custom of hanging murderers.
Is it too much to ask that Muslims simply be held to the same standards everyone else is, within reason?
Of course, and I don't see any reason why civil disputes couldn't be arbitrated under sharia, if both parties consent.
The problem here is two paradigms that are incompatible: the traditional primacy of the family versus the modern state's duty to protect individual rights. And on that conflict, I don't think we can give an inch and still call ourselves liberal.
The Brits will be so grateful for your kind words.
Is it?
I thought part of the package on immigrating to a country was accepting its legal code. Is it too much to ask that Muslims accept the legal code?
For civil disputes, no. But if you murder your sister, and your family is considered the wronged party, and your family's culture says the murder was OK, then there's that fundamental conflict between the primacy of the family and the state's duty to protect your sister's rights.
Now, you can argue, correctly, that sharia does not say you can kill your sister for "dishonoring" your family, any more than Jewish law says you can kill your brother for not keeping kosher or Catholic teachings allow you to kill your father for eating meat on a Friday.
The problem people have, I think, which is resaonable, is this: some versions of sharia do mandate certain behaviors for women, and women who violate them are being murdered.
I think if Jews or Catholics were being regularly murdered as above, we would, as a liberal society, have some duty to strongly discourage those laws from being practiced, at least in their illiberal portions.
Why are you asking me, ask the Brits. Oh, and be sure to quote the Bible and the Koran, liberally. Tell them that their legal system is based on the word of God. That'll get them on your side.
In point of fact, we already have numerous examples within our own country of religious arbitration being used to settle civil disputes. It's been going on for some time. It's nothing new, and it's nothing scary.
Murder is still clearly murder and should not be tolerated. If that's what we're talking about, then why don't we talk about the wrongness of murder and the need to eliminate it rather than this silly crap about Sharia being "imposed" because some woman somewhere in the United States wants to use an Imam to help her settle her divorce dispute?
Again, because violence is being used to enforce sharia.
Or as Glenn put it:
It's interesting, however, that Rowan Williams need have no fear for his personal safety after saying that Sharia is inevitable in England, while had he said bad things about Sharia the reverse would have been true. Under such circumstances, is behavior like his surprising?
Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;
1. These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.
..and, also from Osama:
It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
1.You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
Sharia is being used by bin Laden and his ilk as a means of establishing dominance over the west. When sharia is established and respected in a western country, his followers and his sponsors believe that they have won territory and power. We may not see it that way, but they do.
I'm sure that there were plenty of reasonable Germans during the 1930's who simply wanted to buy some land and build a nice house. There were plenty of nice Hindus who thought that the swastika was a symbol of peace. It's not their fault that Hitler used their beliefs and symbols for his propaganda.
Study the Nazi Party platform of the 1930s and you'll see they advocated universal education for the masses. So should we all be afraid of that too?
Can we please stop smearing every Muslim on the planet based on the lunatic rantings of a madman?
Show me the people who want to impose Bin Ladenism on America, and I'll show you people I'll happily help drive out of the country or even execute. But let's stop with the shrieking hysteria over stupid and unconstructive things.
I think that is the focus. The objection people have to sharia is that it is too often being enforced via extralegal violence.
and how's that working out for them?
They're still picking out drapes for their caves, I see.
Dean, honestly, your argument isn't with me, it's with those hysterical brits. The ones who are asking "Has the Archbishop gone bonkers?".
If you and others believe that Sharia is a good and beneficial system of law, go on their blogs and tell them.
I don't honestly see what's so tough about that.
Hopefully in 20-40 years, sharia will be no more of an issue than kosher.
I don't either. please go ahead and talk to them..
In addition, slander and gossip--which is what usually gives rise to honor killings--are considered grave sins, and no substitute for proof.
Unfortunately there are those who ignore these stipulations, which is why I think Shari'a in the hands of ordinary Muslims, most of whom are as ignorant of their own religion as the average non-Muslim, is a bad idea.
Short of the four witnesses, the only way an adulterer (under these interpretations, anyway) is for both parties to confess to the adultery.
That was the issue in the 'Death of a Princess' controversy from back in the early 80s. The couple confessed and would not retract the confessions. Hence, execution.
My concern is that if it were put in place, it would quickly morph into something he couldn't tolerate, but it would be too late to undo it.
Dishman, the overwhelming trend of history is that repressive laws become liberalized over time. Example - all of European history.
I agree with Tall Dave upthread. The muslim world is only 100 years old post-Ottoman collapse, and most of that has been as pawns under the great game of the colonial powers. Only now are they beginning the process of political maturation. Even in Saudi Arabia, the signs are there. In 50 years... well, just look at Dubai. Its basically Singapore.
Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Sudan, post-Soviet Russia...
Fathers in almost all cultures have serious objection to their daughters being "dishonored". This is not a Sharia thing.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.