I question the assumption that just because white voters went for Edwards it means that they did so because of racially motivated reasoning. Edwards and Obama are not particularly similar in their rhetoric or proposals, after all.
However, I agree with you that Obama should have actions to match his words. He should reply "So what if I am?"
Obama would certainly take the more high-minded approach, if he had a case of "I'd rather be right than president." In a year when Mormonism became an issue briefly, Obama would rather be President.
Furthermore, Obama can't really say "So what if I am" if he isn't, he could only say "So what if I were," which is considerably weaker. In other words, maybe an actual Muslim candidate or at least an actual Muslim should make that case, not Obama.
DanielH, that Daniel Pipes link is surreal. An infant has no religion obviously (even baptized ones). A third grader has no religion.
It's not clear to me that Mormonism has been an issue only "briefly." It became pretty apparent that the ugly religious bigotry against Romney has been, and continues to be, a powerful force in multiple places.
Nah, he ain't a muslim. If he was, he'd have a middle name like Mohammed or Hussein or something like that:)
Just kidding, jeez!
There ain't a damn thing wrong with muslims qua muslims. The problem we are having is with a small, teeny-weeny, minority of Arab Muslims, who have opted for Wahhabism.
Hell, if Obama is in fact a muslim, that'd be cool with me!
"It became pretty apparent that the ugly religious bigotry against Romney has been, and continues to be, a powerful force in multiple places."
Does is make me a bigot if I object to Mormons from some logical standpoint? I have no animosity towards Mormons, they seem like decent people, if rather dull. I would not want the leader of the free world (Do we still claim that title? It is a good one...) to follow a creed so demonstrably ridiculous. Granted, most religious have some proverbial bats in the belfry, but at the very least Joseph Smith was guilty of a hoax concerning his "Book of Abraham"-- why one should consider the "Book of Mormon" any more believable boggles the mind.
I don't know why I'd feel any better if Romney's faith was in something kinda kooky with a few thousand years more of a pedigree, and I don't know if this makes me a terrible bigot.
Capital L, msy I suggest you apply my usual standard of measurement?
I.e., how a majority of Citizens not only believe that it's better than okay to sexually mutilate baby boys without the slightest rational basis, but also somehow simultaneously believe that doing far less damaging things to little girls' genitalia is one of the most grotesque horrors remaining in the modern world?
Honestly, from that perspective, Mormonism looks like little more than a mild bagatelle of an eccentricity -- such as always peppering one's soup, regardless -- compared to the deranged open-air lunatic asylum in which I'm forced to reside as an intactivist.
On a daily routine basis and as a matter of routine course, I have to associate and interact with people who are not only in favor of sexually mutilating child abuse, but are howling shrieking sexist bigots about it as well.
So it kinds of helps to keep things in proportion to remember that more than half of the people around you consider it not just not bad, but actively good and right to strap a little baby boy down, tear his prepuce loose, put the bloody exposed tissue in a clamp, and then cut off what would eventually become about 15 square inches of the most sexually sensitive skin on the male body; a literally primary erogenous zone. And, just to add insult to injury, that just putting a little nick in a little girls' prepuce is a human rights violation of tremendous magnitude and importance, and a vile example of sexism.
"Ugly religious bigotry"?
Dude, not even close. You can stop straining at the gnats now.
Well I suppose it was only a matter of time before Acksiom brought up circumcision, seeing as how religion was mentioned.
HEY: We get it.
However, it still feels pretty freaking down there when I'm doing the funky bumping, savvy? And from what I understand, many women who've undergone female circumcision have had their fertile crescent bombed into glass from a pleasure perspective.
"An infant has no religion obviously (even baptized ones). A third grader has no religion."
While that is one perspective, it is certainly not the only one. An easy example is infant baptism, which of course does assume that an infant has religion.
The idea that religion is purely a matter of individual choice and that that choice cannat be made until a certain level of maturity is obtained is extremely modern and certainly not universally shared even in very liberal cultures.
Dave, while that's true, what is highly curious is that it has only been non-Muslims claiming that Obama was born Muslim and therefore now an apostate.
I was only commenting on the narrow question of whether children before a certain age can be considered to have religion or not, and noting that many people do consider that.
I don't have any particular knowledge about Obama in this, and I don't know what Muslim belief is on apostacy before a certain age even if Obama could have been considered a nominal Muslim at a young age.
In truth, the issue isn't one of any real concern to me one way or the other. If I had any real concerns about Obama's religion, it would be with his current congregation and it's support of Farakan rather then any beliefs he may have had as a child.
I do though have some concerns with the 'smear' idea that has penetrated political discussion when the 'smear' seems to be bringing something up whether it is factual or not. A smear seems to have morphed from something that isn't true, to something that souldn't be mentioned whether true or not. That second approach bothers me.
An easy example is infant baptism, which of course does assume that an infant has religion. I would say the infant has a very thin slice of it, though, and I guess what I meant was that baptized infants have no religious beliefs.
I am a former Catholic, who was born and raised a Catholic, and am married to a former Catholic, who was born and raised a Catholic. My maternal grandmother was baptized in a Protestant church when she was an adult, but she married a Catholic man. As was the custom, she converted to Catholicism and raised all her children as Catholics. This is something that was and remains important to many Catholics, Jews and Protestants. I find that the Daniel Pipes article makes perfect sense and that his description of Obama's upbringing is apt.
Most people are born into their religion and never leave it.
It looks like Obama, my wife, my grandmother and I are exceptions.
I would say the infant has a very thin slice of it
So would Acksiom. ;^D
1.29.2008 3:41pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
I question the assumption that just because white voters went for Edwards it means that they did so because of racially motivated reasoning. Edwards and Obama are not particularly similar in their rhetoric or proposals, after all.
However, I agree with you that Obama should have actions to match his words. He should reply "So what if I am?"
Furthermore, Obama can't really say "So what if I am" if he isn't, he could only say "So what if I were," which is considerably weaker. In other words, maybe an actual Muslim candidate or at least an actual Muslim should make that case, not Obama.
DanielH, that Daniel Pipes link is surreal. An infant has no religion obviously (even baptized ones). A third grader has no religion.
Just kidding, jeez!
There ain't a damn thing wrong with muslims qua muslims. The problem we are having is with a small, teeny-weeny, minority of Arab Muslims, who have opted for Wahhabism.
Hell, if Obama is in fact a muslim, that'd be cool with me!
HankB
Does is make me a bigot if I object to Mormons from some logical standpoint? I have no animosity towards Mormons, they seem like decent people, if rather dull. I would not want the leader of the free world (Do we still claim that title? It is a good one...) to follow a creed so demonstrably ridiculous. Granted, most religious have some proverbial bats in the belfry, but at the very least Joseph Smith was guilty of a hoax concerning his "Book of Abraham"-- why one should consider the "Book of Mormon" any more believable boggles the mind.
I don't know why I'd feel any better if Romney's faith was in something kinda kooky with a few thousand years more of a pedigree, and I don't know if this makes me a terrible bigot.
I.e., how a majority of Citizens not only believe that it's better than okay to sexually mutilate baby boys without the slightest rational basis, but also somehow simultaneously believe that doing far less damaging things to little girls' genitalia is one of the most grotesque horrors remaining in the modern world?
Honestly, from that perspective, Mormonism looks like little more than a mild bagatelle of an eccentricity -- such as always peppering one's soup, regardless -- compared to the deranged open-air lunatic asylum in which I'm forced to reside as an intactivist.
On a daily routine basis and as a matter of routine course, I have to associate and interact with people who are not only in favor of sexually mutilating child abuse, but are howling shrieking sexist bigots about it as well.
So it kinds of helps to keep things in proportion to remember that more than half of the people around you consider it not just not bad, but actively good and right to strap a little baby boy down, tear his prepuce loose, put the bloody exposed tissue in a clamp, and then cut off what would eventually become about 15 square inches of the most sexually sensitive skin on the male body; a literally primary erogenous zone. And, just to add insult to injury, that just putting a little nick in a little girls' prepuce is a human rights violation of tremendous magnitude and importance, and a vile example of sexism.
"Ugly religious bigotry"?
Dude, not even close. You can stop straining at the gnats now.
HEY: We get it.
However, it still feels pretty freaking down there when I'm doing the funky bumping, savvy? And from what I understand, many women who've undergone female circumcision have had their fertile crescent bombed into glass from a pleasure perspective.
While that is one perspective, it is certainly not the only one. An easy example is infant baptism, which of course does assume that an infant has religion.
The idea that religion is purely a matter of individual choice and that that choice cannat be made until a certain level of maturity is obtained is extremely modern and certainly not universally shared even in very liberal cultures.
I don't have any particular knowledge about Obama in this, and I don't know what Muslim belief is on apostacy before a certain age even if Obama could have been considered a nominal Muslim at a young age.
In truth, the issue isn't one of any real concern to me one way or the other. If I had any real concerns about Obama's religion, it would be with his current congregation and it's support of Farakan rather then any beliefs he may have had as a child.
I do though have some concerns with the 'smear' idea that has penetrated political discussion when the 'smear' seems to be bringing something up whether it is factual or not. A smear seems to have morphed from something that isn't true, to something that souldn't be mentioned whether true or not. That second approach bothers me.
I would say the infant has a very thin slice of it, though, and I guess what I meant was that baptized infants have no religious beliefs.
Most people are born into their religion and never leave it.
It looks like Obama, my wife, my grandmother and I are exceptions.
Yours,
Wince
So would Acksiom. ;^D
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.