Plot points, while cool, are hardly unique to Cortex. I've seen some version of them in many systems. Since I don't have any game books here at work, I'm just trying to remember from the top of my head: Toon, Ghostbusters, Alternity... A "break the rules" point is really useful for any sort of "cinematic" or "heroic" setting.
Toon was my favorite: you got plot points for making the GM laugh uncontrollably.
Come to think of it, I think even classic Top Secret back in the early 80s had Luck Points that you could use to survive the impossible or pull off James Bond-like impossible feats.
I started in elementary school, actually. First it was clumsily playing a few session of D&D with my cousin, and then getting hooked along with some friends on the Palladium franchise, specifically Rifts and Heroes: Unlimited. Those games were all great as they allowed us to shamelessly pilfer ideas from our favorite movies of the time (Nightbreed being chief among them).
Later on in high school, once our tastes became more "refined," we got involved with an older, more experienced GM who introduced us to the White Wolf system and the more adult potential for gaming, essentially bringing us to the next level.
Now the gaming group has gone through many manifestations from the original 3 up to 6 or so at its peak, and now is staying steady at 2 and 3 if he ever finds the time to join up. The games we play are entirely of our own devising with no set rulesets or preconditions.
For systems I generally really enjoy the white wolf style. Only ten sided dice, very flexible in terms of incorporating skill level and difficulty. For us, the fewer rules the better. We roll usually only in combat or other mission critical situations, and any other time character development and interaction, as well as plot takes the forefront. Generally if I think it's more interesting for a story to go a certain way I won't bother rolling to see if it happens.
Like Martin, and many others I'm sure, I've written a ww-style d10 application. I don't know how much use you might have for it, but those interested can check it out here.
Heh, anyone who has visited my blog for more than a few visits has almost certainly seen some of my role-playing posts.
I almost responded to Martin's post about all true gaming geeks using computer generated dice rolls instead of using actual dice.
I absolutely refute that. The TRUE gamer geeks understand that actual dice are the only thing that is truly random, while computer-generated dice rolls are pseudo-random, meaning that they are not random at all. Putting your beloved 14th level character's fate in the hands of pure chance is one thing, putting it in the hands of Bill Gates is quite another. No true appreciator of quantum effects would ever use a computer to roll their dice for them. ;-) That's a computer geek, not a gaming geek who would do such a thing.
I am a big fan of role-playing games, not just as a fun diversion comparable to fantasy football or p0ker night, but as a way to actually learn valuable skills in teamwork, problem solving and gaining an appreciation of alternative perspectives. Most gamers I know are highly diverse because they "live" in a world that is far more diverse than our little petty differences could ever match. Once you've been with a party of half-orcs, halflings, elves and who knows what modification or invented race, the differences between human beings start to look pretty trivial.
I pretty much just play D&D now. I tried a lot of the other systems, particularly things like Gamma World if I recall. But what I discovered over time is that I am not really a rules geek, I enjoy the social activity itself. Any set of rules is only as good or as bad as the game master running the campaign. I'm part of a pretty good group right now and in general we accept the rules for what they are, an approximation of physical laws applied to a fantasy environment where "reality" includes such bizarre concepts as magic spells, flying dragons, heroic weapons and unfathomable luck.
Of course the real key is using real dice so that you are at the mercy of the Gods of Chaos. Anything else is just a perversion of the activity. ;-)
So, I did not realize that "p0ker" was a banned word. That's quite surprising to me.
I started role playing when I was 7 years old, in 1978. That Christmas while visiting my grandfather, the college student who lived across the street introduced my brothers and I to D&D. I haven't looked back since, and still game every Sat when I can.
Plot / Karma points go back pretty far, the original Marvel Super Heroes game used them for both altering die as well as XP. (You could spend XP to alter the die roll.)
The Cortex style system also was first used, as far as I know, with Tales from the Floating Vagabond, one of the best humor systems created.
I'll agree that the original Star Wars RPG was well done, but the concept got a bit out of hand with Shadowrun, I remember a friend barely being able to hold all the dice he needed to roll in that one.
Oh, Kevin, It was Deadlands: The Weird West (Want a copy of Hoyles?).
Me, these days, depending on whom I'm with at the time, I run a simple D20 D&D campaign in my own world, Dragonstorm (Card based RPG, pretty decent), or GURPS (own campaigns.) I've been working on several new campaign worlds, and they will prolly be a heavily modified D20 style system, or homebrew, as I want the less realistic style of D20 (as opposed to GURPS), but dislike class based systems. I might try altering BESM or MM for it, not sure.
And yes, I am utterly a gaming geek. Computer, PnP, and even PbE games, I'm currently involved in all three styles.
Oh, Kevin, It was Deadlands: The Weird West (Want a copy of Hoyles?).
No, that's not the game I was talking about either. But I just realized I mentioned the wrong game anyway. I meant Deadlands: Hell on Earth. The Wasted West was a supplement for Hell on Earth.
I remember a friend barely being able to hold all the dice he needed to roll in that one.
I remember the feeling of pride that overcame me when I had to use a Big Gulp cup to hold all the D6s I had to role sometimes for Star Wars.
You play Dragonstorm!? I thought I was the only person on the planet that knew about that game. I loved the damned thing! I still have all my old cards!
If you ever want to get rid of them I will gladly take them off your hands.
Wrote a nice lengthy post about my early gaming days before RPG's and such, and some designs I worked on, but the system claims I used a banned word and so I lost the whole post.
Sorry Kevin. I'm keeping my Dragonstorm cards. I still play it, though not as much as I used to. I've actually commissioned Susan Van Camp to do some art for me in the past. I even sent in a few ideas for the game back when it first came out.
TimKindred, the same thing happened to me, the word was "poker." It took me about five minutes to locate the word from my comment above.
I personally think the banned list is a little ridiculous, but then I don't run a site that gets 1/100 of the traffic Dean gets, so my opinion could change in the unlikely event that my little blog ever goes bigtime.
Ah... got it. I normally save my posts just in case, but this time I hit the post button agead of time... sigh.
Okay: short version...
I started wargaming before their were RPG's. Although the Great God Gax used D20 &D12 systems, they were not available as die yet. TRACTICS and CHAINMAIL were TSR's first two biggies. They reccomended you use either a bingo cage with the numbers 1-20 in it, or a bag of p@ker chips numbered 1-20 and draw as needed. D12 were done with 2 different colored D6. One was the control die. The numbers 1-3 added 0 to the other die, whereas the numbers 4-6 added 6. Worked great.
D&D started as a fantasy supplement to Chainmail so folks could fight with Aurthur &Merlin, St George &the Dragon, etc. I stoll have copies of them.
My favorite RPG's are SPACE:1898, and Behind Enemy Lines (NOT the FASA, but the edition redone by The Companions).
I absolutely refute that. The TRUE gamer geeks understand that actual dice are the only thing that is truly random, while computer-generated dice rolls are pseudo-random, meaning that they are not random at all. Putting your beloved 14th level character's fate in the hands of pure chance is one thing, putting it in the hands of Bill Gates is quite another. No true appreciator of quantum effects would ever use a computer to roll their dice for them. ;-) That's a computer geek, not a gaming geek who would do such a thing.
I'll put my random number algorithm up against your dice any day. Unless your dice are kept extremely pristine, they become non-random with wear.
And having spilled and cleaned up 40d6 more times than I can count (I was a Champions GM for a lotta years, and the really nasty attacks were that nasty), I really appreciate the fact that computer dice never spill.
The Cortex style system also was first used, as far as I know, with Tales from the Floating Vagabond, one of the best humor systems created.
Oh, man, I wanted to run that game. We even gave it a try for a couple of nights. But my players always go back to d20. They'll do Hero, but only if I'm the GM. No one else wants the extra work.
Space: 1898 is a really awesome setting. Everybody should check it out.
I started RPGing when I was about 13 or 14. Started out with D&D and Rifts. Moved into Vampire, Werewolf, and Changeling. In college I did Call of Cthulu (hella fun) and had a long-running D&D campaign. I also did Burning Wheel for a while.
Nowadays I'm doing Riddle of Steel and GURPS. I've always been a GM, hardly ever playing myself. Some of my best story concepts have come from RPG games. I truly believe it is an intensely helpful creative exercise.
My two favorite settings are probably Changeling: The Dreaming and Harn.
Part of why I never got into White Wolf -- besides the fact that I've had my fill of Goth -- is that the major draw is the settings. And I almost never use published settings.
Oh, if it's a game based on a setting like BSG or Star Wars, I'll have no choice: the setting is the game, more or less.
But other than that, I prefer to make my own. So the idea of a "favorite setting" would never occur to me.
Well, I did use the Star*Drive setting for Alternity. But as I had a tiny hand in designing that one, I kinda had to. I was a frequent member of the Alternity mailing list before the game was published; and collectively, we gave them lots of fine-tuning feedback, plus a bar they incorporated into their space station supplement.
I love settings. There are some truly great ones out there. For me, they really stoke my creativity in all areas. I'll buy them even if I never intend on using them simply for the sheer joy of reading about someone else's created world.
I didn't know certain words were banned. I'll talk to Dean about that.
However, I've noticed that if you click "Post Comment" and get some kind of error on the following page like you must login in first to comment or something, your post isn't necessarily lost. Right click in the window somewhere and select "Back" if you can. Every time I've done that it brings me back to the previous screen, with my entire comment still intact.
Try it yourself. Write something in the comment field and click "Post Comment" before putting in your account ID and password. When you get the error screen, right click the screen and click "Back." See if that works.
RE: Dice vs. die-rollers: There's something more visceral about rolling dice, so I stick with that when I play, which is very infrequently these days.
I'm more of a beer and pretzels player. I like to get some single-minded, gruff character [DWARFS RULE!] and just ignore all the roleplaying BS in favor of the goal.
As for games and GMing - GMing is how I started out, so I guess thats why I never really got into playing up the roles in a long-term sort of way. I much prefer games like HOL and Paranoia and Warhammer 40K to anything storyline-based [V:TM can suck the pipe, baby]. Although I did like Harn for awhile.....
I too started with SR2. (I actually started with 40K, since pickup games are easier than starting a group.) SR2 had remarkably stable rules once you threw out decking and the group agreed to simply hand those duties to contracted NPCs.
You should check out some of the old AEG properties (now WotC, so get the old stuff on ebay or used bookstores.) Right now my group is switching back and forth between Legend of the Five Rings and 7th Sea. Both use about the same system, but L5R is fairly serious and dark, while 7th Sea is... swashbuckling. Oh yeah, baby. Nothing is too outrageous, campy, or over the top. And it uses Drama Dice, which are essentially identical to the Serenity Plot Points.
And yes, the rules encourage the GM to hand out a Drama Die if someone says something that causes the game to be delayed due to gales of laughter.
Dwarfs do rule, but it's because they are unbalanced according to the core books own rules for creating balanced races. They have two +2s in the three primary attributes and one -2 in each the primary and secondary attributes. One of which is charisma, which is almost useless for the roles that dwarfs usually perform.
I have done a lot of new race creation and if dwarfs didn't exist as they do and someone in one of my dungeons introduced a character with the bonuses dwarfs get, I would probably not allow it without a level adjustment of at least +1.
That's why they rule, and that's why I almost never play them. I feel like I'm cheating a bit if I do.
I could never get into the dice/deck games, it was just too awkward, and, yes, dorky. Sorry.
I did play one of the first MMPORGs, the appropriately monikered Realms Of Despair, in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was all text and had very frustrating rules, but was the first RPG I actually enjoyed.
I started with Traveller in 1982, followed shortly by AD&D. I played D&D exactly twice before becoming the more-or-less-permanent DM, and played for months without the DM Guide and almost a year without the Monster Manual. When you're 13 and have no gaming materials besides the Players HB and a set of dice, your imagination is really pushed hard, and though those early days were crazy, it was fun crazy.
Dabbled in Greyhawk and looked at Forgotten Realms but mostly played my own worlds, though they were of course heavily influenced by various books and movies and such. Did run the original Dragonlance campaign as it was published and loved it, though follow-on DL stuff was pretty bad (at best) and never played it. DMed original Ravenloft and Ravenloft II modules, but didn't do much with the full-on campaign setting that followed, though I stole some of the concepts for my regular worlds.
Tried Star Frontiers, Twilight:2000, DC Heores, Marvel, Mehcwarrior, Star Wars, Star Trek. Probably others. Only DC and T:2K had any staying power, and even they didn't hold a candle to AD&D.
About 98% of my RPGing has been as game master. Almost always very story-driven campaigns, we would sometimes go entire evenings without rolling a single die. Even the series of what we still call the "superdungeons" were pretty story-intensive.
Made the switch to 2nd Edition very late in my gaming career, and I've recently bought up a bunch of 2E stuff of eBay to play with my kids. They love it.
I'm thinking hard about a D&D campaign based loosely upon John Carter of Mars crossed with Land of the Lost, Challengers of the Unknown, and the 70s Turok Son of Stone, and have forbidden my son from reading the Barsoom books.
Also played a lot of tabletop wargames, though always had trouble finding opponents that wanted to put in the time for them.
Oh, and Statis-Pro baseball hour after hour, mostly solitare. Does that count?
Why is it that every time some blogger writes about RPGs there's a long series of comments by readers about their own gaming history? And why is it that so many times it's the same people? And why do I always read all of them? And, maybe most importantly of all, why do I always enjoy it so much?
Hmmm... why is it that when anyone enters a post about religion, there's a long series of comments by readers about their own religious history? And why is it that so many times it's the same people?" And why do I always skim over them? And most importantly of all, why do I always find it so irrelevant?
Pencil and paper. We played 1814 - the French invasion of Russia. I was Greece.
1.19.2008 10:43pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
Toon was my favorite: you got plot points for making the GM laugh uncontrollably.
Later on in high school, once our tastes became more "refined," we got involved with an older, more experienced GM who introduced us to the White Wolf system and the more adult potential for gaming, essentially bringing us to the next level.
Now the gaming group has gone through many manifestations from the original 3 up to 6 or so at its peak, and now is staying steady at 2 and 3 if he ever finds the time to join up. The games we play are entirely of our own devising with no set rulesets or preconditions.
For systems I generally really enjoy the white wolf style. Only ten sided dice, very flexible in terms of incorporating skill level and difficulty. For us, the fewer rules the better. We roll usually only in combat or other mission critical situations, and any other time character development and interaction, as well as plot takes the forefront. Generally if I think it's more interesting for a story to go a certain way I won't bother rolling to see if it happens.
Like Martin, and many others I'm sure, I've written a ww-style d10 application. I don't know how much use you might have for it, but those interested can check it out here.
I almost responded to Martin's post about all true gaming geeks using computer generated dice rolls instead of using actual dice.
I absolutely refute that. The TRUE gamer geeks understand that actual dice are the only thing that is truly random, while computer-generated dice rolls are pseudo-random, meaning that they are not random at all. Putting your beloved 14th level character's fate in the hands of pure chance is one thing, putting it in the hands of Bill Gates is quite another. No true appreciator of quantum effects would ever use a computer to roll their dice for them. ;-) That's a computer geek, not a gaming geek who would do such a thing.
I am a big fan of role-playing games, not just as a fun diversion comparable to fantasy football or p0ker night, but as a way to actually learn valuable skills in teamwork, problem solving and gaining an appreciation of alternative perspectives. Most gamers I know are highly diverse because they "live" in a world that is far more diverse than our little petty differences could ever match. Once you've been with a party of half-orcs, halflings, elves and who knows what modification or invented race, the differences between human beings start to look pretty trivial.
I pretty much just play D&D now. I tried a lot of the other systems, particularly things like Gamma World if I recall. But what I discovered over time is that I am not really a rules geek, I enjoy the social activity itself. Any set of rules is only as good or as bad as the game master running the campaign. I'm part of a pretty good group right now and in general we accept the rules for what they are, an approximation of physical laws applied to a fantasy environment where "reality" includes such bizarre concepts as magic spells, flying dragons, heroic weapons and unfathomable luck.
Of course the real key is using real dice so that you are at the mercy of the Gods of Chaos. Anything else is just a perversion of the activity. ;-)
So, I did not realize that "p0ker" was a banned word. That's quite surprising to me.
Plot / Karma points go back pretty far, the original Marvel Super Heroes game used them for both altering die as well as XP. (You could spend XP to alter the die roll.)
The Cortex style system also was first used, as far as I know, with Tales from the Floating Vagabond, one of the best humor systems created.
I'll agree that the original Star Wars RPG was well done, but the concept got a bit out of hand with Shadowrun, I remember a friend barely being able to hold all the dice he needed to roll in that one.
Oh, Kevin, It was Deadlands: The Weird West (Want a copy of Hoyles?).
Me, these days, depending on whom I'm with at the time, I run a simple D20 D&D campaign in my own world, Dragonstorm (Card based RPG, pretty decent), or GURPS (own campaigns.) I've been working on several new campaign worlds, and they will prolly be a heavily modified D20 style system, or homebrew, as I want the less realistic style of D20 (as opposed to GURPS), but dislike class based systems. I might try altering BESM or MM for it, not sure.
And yes, I am utterly a gaming geek. Computer, PnP, and even PbE games, I'm currently involved in all three styles.
No, that's not the game I was talking about either. But I just realized I mentioned the wrong game anyway. I meant Deadlands: Hell on Earth. The Wasted West was a supplement for Hell on Earth.
I remember the feeling of pride that overcame me when I had to use a Big Gulp cup to hold all the D6s I had to role sometimes for Star Wars.
Good times.
You play Dragonstorm!? I thought I was the only person on the planet that knew about that game. I loved the damned thing! I still have all my old cards!
If you ever want to get rid of them I will gladly take them off your hands.
Wrote a nice lengthy post about my early gaming days before RPG's and such, and some designs I worked on, but the system claims I used a banned word and so I lost the whole post.
So, screw it.
I personally think the banned list is a little ridiculous, but then I don't run a site that gets 1/100 of the traffic Dean gets, so my opinion could change in the unlikely event that my little blog ever goes bigtime.
Okay: short version...
I started wargaming before their were RPG's. Although the Great God Gax used D20 &D12 systems, they were not available as die yet. TRACTICS and CHAINMAIL were TSR's first two biggies. They reccomended you use either a bingo cage with the numbers 1-20 in it, or a bag of p@ker chips numbered 1-20 and draw as needed. D12 were done with 2 different colored D6. One was the control die. The numbers 1-3 added 0 to the other die, whereas the numbers 4-6 added 6. Worked great.
D&D started as a fantasy supplement to Chainmail so folks could fight with Aurthur &Merlin, St George &the Dragon, etc. I stoll have copies of them.
My favorite RPG's are SPACE:1898, and Behind Enemy Lines (NOT the FASA, but the edition redone by The Companions).
Mostly I play Warhammer 40K these days.
I'll put my random number algorithm up against your dice any day. Unless your dice are kept extremely pristine, they become non-random with wear.
And having spilled and cleaned up 40d6 more times than I can count (I was a Champions GM for a lotta years, and the really nasty attacks were that nasty), I really appreciate the fact that computer dice never spill.
Oh, man, I wanted to run that game. We even gave it a try for a couple of nights. But my players always go back to d20. They'll do Hero, but only if I'm the GM. No one else wants the extra work.
Space: 1898 is a really awesome setting. Everybody should check it out.
I started RPGing when I was about 13 or 14. Started out with D&D and Rifts. Moved into Vampire, Werewolf, and Changeling. In college I did Call of Cthulu (hella fun) and had a long-running D&D campaign. I also did Burning Wheel for a while.
Nowadays I'm doing Riddle of Steel and GURPS. I've always been a GM, hardly ever playing myself. Some of my best story concepts have come from RPG games. I truly believe it is an intensely helpful creative exercise.
My two favorite settings are probably Changeling: The Dreaming and Harn.
Oh, if it's a game based on a setting like BSG or Star Wars, I'll have no choice: the setting is the game, more or less.
But other than that, I prefer to make my own. So the idea of a "favorite setting" would never occur to me.
Well, I did use the Star*Drive setting for Alternity. But as I had a tiny hand in designing that one, I kinda had to. I was a frequent member of the Alternity mailing list before the game was published; and collectively, we gave them lots of fine-tuning feedback, plus a bar they incorporated into their space station supplement.
However, I've noticed that if you click "Post Comment" and get some kind of error on the following page like you must login in first to comment or something, your post isn't necessarily lost. Right click in the window somewhere and select "Back" if you can. Every time I've done that it brings me back to the previous screen, with my entire comment still intact.
Try it yourself. Write something in the comment field and click "Post Comment" before putting in your account ID and password. When you get the error screen, right click the screen and click "Back." See if that works.
I'm more of a beer and pretzels player. I like to get some single-minded, gruff character [DWARFS RULE!] and just ignore all the roleplaying BS in favor of the goal.
As for games and GMing - GMing is how I started out, so I guess thats why I never really got into playing up the roles in a long-term sort of way. I much prefer games like HOL and Paranoia and Warhammer 40K to anything storyline-based [V:TM can suck the pipe, baby]. Although I did like Harn for awhile.....
You're just jealous you can't lament your own existance like a Vampire player can.
That could be taken a few different ways. Not any of them less scary than the other.
You should check out some of the old AEG properties (now WotC, so get the old stuff on ebay or used bookstores.) Right now my group is switching back and forth between Legend of the Five Rings and 7th Sea. Both use about the same system, but L5R is fairly serious and dark, while 7th Sea is... swashbuckling. Oh yeah, baby. Nothing is too outrageous, campy, or over the top. And it uses Drama Dice, which are essentially identical to the Serenity Plot Points.
And yes, the rules encourage the GM to hand out a Drama Die if someone says something that causes the game to be delayed due to gales of laughter.
Dwarfs do rule, but it's because they are unbalanced according to the core books own rules for creating balanced races. They have two +2s in the three primary attributes and one -2 in each the primary and secondary attributes. One of which is charisma, which is almost useless for the roles that dwarfs usually perform.
I have done a lot of new race creation and if dwarfs didn't exist as they do and someone in one of my dungeons introduced a character with the bonuses dwarfs get, I would probably not allow it without a level adjustment of at least +1.
That's why they rule, and that's why I almost never play them. I feel like I'm cheating a bit if I do.
I did play one of the first MMPORGs, the appropriately monikered Realms Of Despair, in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was all text and had very frustrating rules, but was the first RPG I actually enjoyed.
World of Warcraft is just amazing.
Dabbled in Greyhawk and looked at Forgotten Realms but mostly played my own worlds, though they were of course heavily influenced by various books and movies and such. Did run the original Dragonlance campaign as it was published and loved it, though follow-on DL stuff was pretty bad (at best) and never played it. DMed original Ravenloft and Ravenloft II modules, but didn't do much with the full-on campaign setting that followed, though I stole some of the concepts for my regular worlds.
Tried Star Frontiers, Twilight:2000, DC Heores, Marvel, Mehcwarrior, Star Wars, Star Trek. Probably others. Only DC and T:2K had any staying power, and even they didn't hold a candle to AD&D.
About 98% of my RPGing has been as game master. Almost always very story-driven campaigns, we would sometimes go entire evenings without rolling a single die. Even the series of what we still call the "superdungeons" were pretty story-intensive.
Made the switch to 2nd Edition very late in my gaming career, and I've recently bought up a bunch of 2E stuff of eBay to play with my kids. They love it.
I'm thinking hard about a D&D campaign based loosely upon John Carter of Mars crossed with Land of the Lost, Challengers of the Unknown, and the 70s Turok Son of Stone, and have forbidden my son from reading the Barsoom books.
Also played a lot of tabletop wargames, though always had trouble finding opponents that wanted to put in the time for them.
Oh, and Statis-Pro baseball hour after hour, mostly solitare. Does that count?
Why is it that every time some blogger writes about RPGs there's a long series of comments by readers about their own gaming history? And why is it that so many times it's the same people? And why do I always read all of them? And, maybe most importantly of all, why do I always enjoy it so much?
Ah, those were the days.
Ah, these are the days....
Pencil and paper. We played 1814 - the French invasion of Russia. I was Greece.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.