I believe the optimal approach falls under the heading of "targetted assassinations".
I believe the strategic objective is to alter the culture of the "Palestinians" in such a way that they "love their children more than they hate Jews".
I would do this in two steps. First, I would crystalize the cancer, pinning it down in a position of high public exposure. This step has already taken place in Gaza. Second, I would guide it towards self-immolation or apoptosis. Paranoia is a useful element on this path.
Waging total war against "civilian" populations is not socially acceptable. That is not an insurmountable obstacle, though, as terrorists are strongly inclined towards self-destruction.
Targeted assassinations show how capable and restrained the Israeli army is. But Israel is like a fencing master demonstrating his great skill in a battle against a rabid bear.
The terrorists and the nations that support them are both crazed and animalistic. The infrastructure that supports Hamas is made up of the foot soldiers (the guys with guns), the middlemen (the financiers and propagandists) and the terror/political leaders in Gaza, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc.. If Israel is smart enough to target the elusive terrorist leaders, they should also know that the weakest point in this infrastructure is the middlemen.
Another weak point is America and Europe's willingness to believe the implausible lie that terrorists are not supported by the governments in the West Bank, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria. For instance, there is plenty of concrete proof that Saudi Arabia was directly responsible for 9/11. Getting that information in front of American and European eyes would accomplish a lot.
How about starving them in to submission? Block the borders, no ships, no trucks, no aircraft.
Let them be 'self sufficient' like Hamas wants them to be.
Whenever a rocket is fired, artillery, and lots of it, is fired back.
Let them keep multiplying like rabbits, and resort to cannibalism.
I think that would be worse than carpet bombing them, but they certainly deserve it. In fact, they've earned it.
If there is any people who deserve total war against them, it's the palestineans of gaza.
Waging total war against "civilian" populations is not socially acceptable.
HA. Yeah, well firing rockets into cities, suicide bombing buses, and training your children to be 'martyrs' is not socially acceptable either. They deserve a taste of their own medicine. And as for this morally superior BS, well, Israel can be morally superior AFTER their objectives have been achieved.
If mosquitoes keep stinging me, I'm going to give up on diplomacy and do my best to kill them all, and if that means draining the entire swamp via extreme methods, so be it. And I know some good fish live in the swamp, but it's their job to eat the mosquito larvae so they don't grow up and sting me, and if they don't then they'll share in their fate when their entire ecosystem is destroyed.
Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems as though targeted assassinations, the target of which is - by definition - a legitimate military target is far more likely to be condemned by the peace-loving international community (PLIC) than is the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians by any group that claims to be acting on behalf of the Palestinians.
Which is why I have a tough time taking the PLIC seriously.
Well then, I'm sure the palestineans of gaza will completely understand when Israel carpet bombs their cities. After all, it's socially acceptable. It's not like they'd act like hypocrites now, would they?
Well then, I'm sure the palestineans of gaza will completely understand when Israel carpet bombs their cities.
I wouldn't shed a tear. Well, no, I might. One.
At this point, I regard the "peace loving international community" as part of the "terrain". It is something to be known, understood, and dealt with. Moral judgements of cranial locations are not part of the art of war. Knowing the precise cranial locations is.
Expel all the Arabs from Gaza, westward across the same Egyptian border through which these same rockets and other weapons have been systematically smuggled to them, with the all but certain knowledge and cooperation of the vile, perpetually lying government of Egypt.
Then that part of the Land of Israel shall be peaceful again.
Otherwise, this all amounts an endless process of applying band-aids to cure a cancer.
Unfortunately, I think the Euroweenies would jump up and down and stomp their feet and say how evil the Jews were. Things went badly the last time they got carried away with that one.
The rest of the Middle East would probably react similarly badly.
"Palestine" and "Evil Jooos" are distractions used by the regimes of the Middle East. I'd rather help that propaganda explode in their faces than reinforce it.
Taking down Iran would go a long way towards resolving the problem, without any particular Israeli action.
On the other hand, having Hamas implode in a gory spectacle of backbiting and savagery (ala AQI) would help deal with Iran, particularly if Iran's hand was visible in the affair.
I only see one really clean way to deal with Iran. I'll post it to Dean's World when I'm ready.
As a matter of strategy, I'd really like to see the Iranian regime toppled by means other than main force. I would especially like it if it were seen as by our doing and/or as a consequence of their nuclear weapons program.
Main Force remains an option, just not preferred. I don't support it for anything less than regime change.
I think we should install a naval blockade against Iran, bomb their rail lines, threaten to shoot down any aircraft going in or out, and use predators to watch the roads at the border.
Then we 'negotiate' with them for 4+ years, and string them along just like they have done to us.
Then we make an offer to airdrop food and medicine, and get them to promise to not shoot down our aircraft. After all, it's a humanitarian mission, right?
We then air drop weapons and ammo over Tehran, and hope they get put to use by the people.
Then Bush has an air force officer say "uhh, I was an undiagnosed dyslexic, I checked the wrong box on the form. Sorry"
At least some of the responses seem to be making a very invalid (I hope) assumption equating Palestinians with terrorists. Palestinians may be afraid to criticize the terrorist positions, or may even have sympathy for the terrorist position, BUT that does not mean they are responsible for terrorism. In a democracy, people being governed are responsible for the actions of government. In a theocracy, monarchy, feudal system, dictatorship, fascist system, etc. the people are disconnected from making decisions about what happens. The mid-East has very few democracies.
I was ANGRY after 9/11 when Palestinians danced in celebration, but the dancers were not responsible for the atrocity. I was ANGRY after 9/11 when virtually no Islamic religious leader in the U.S. could denounce the actions without the qualification, "But given the way the U.S supports Israel, you can understand..." I could not understand, period. And frankly, because of the authoritarian nature of Islam as a religion it is easy to argue that the attitude from the Mosques bears some responsibility for 9/11. I am ELATED that Islamic religious authorities are now denouncing terrorism via the Iraq war; I am ANGRY that this did not occur until terrorists began targeting other followers of Islam. Given the intransigence of Islamic religious leaders and their importance in “governing” the peoples of the mosques, a major benefit of the Iraq war is redirecting terrorism to others-than-Americans.
I'll be really up front and say flat out that I don't have an answer to the Mid East problem, so asking for one from me is pointless. Targeted assination is clearly a way (maybe the only way) to stop those directly responsible for terrorism.
At least some of the responses seem to be making a very invalid (I hope) assumption equating Germans with Nazis. Germans may be afraid to criticize the Nazi positions, or may even have sympathy for the Nazi position, BUT that does not mean they are responsible for the Nazi's atrocities.
Uhh, sorry. Palestinians will be held responsible for what Hamas does (they elected them), and Islamic Jihad, and any other terrorist who they tolerate on their soil. They have a choice: fight the terrorists and maybe die, or suffer in their fate and certainly die. To the palestinians I say: Tough shit, you live by the sword you die by the sword.
In a democracy, people being governed are responsible for the actions of government.
Wait, Hamas was elected. Did you forget that?
The mid-East has very few democracies.
That's their problem, not ours.
a major benefit of the Iraq war is redirecting terrorism to others-than-Americans.
Agreed. Having Al Qaeda defeated in the Sunni heartland by their former allies is a stunning victory for us. Iraqis may hate terrorism to such a degree now that they'll be happy to side with us against them in the future.
Any attempt by Israel to drive the Palestians out of either the West Bank or Gaza will be viewed as Jewish irredentism (more here) and ethnic cleansing - because those are both excellent descriptions of the behavior. Sure, Arnold will quote the Germans being expelled from Poland and Czechoslovakia at the end of World War II. However, that war was most of the world against Germany and a principle cause of that war was German irredentism, and the Germans certainly engaged in ethnic cleansing, so the world viewed this as just desserts.
You can make an excellent case that Palestinian irredentism and desire for ethnic cleansing has been a major cause of the conflict in the Near East. But the Palestinians haven't had Germany's success, so they are pitied as underdogs, not hated as agressors. The Israelis, however, have been quite successful, generally, of late. So the world hates them as agressors rather than pitying them as underdogs.
(Maybe Israel should have given Gaza and the West Bank back to Egypt and Jordan, less a small amount of strategic territory and the rest of Jerusalem, almost immediately after the 1967 war as part of the cease fire agreement.)
If Israel did kick out the Palestinians it might result in another World War, for which Israel would likely be blamed. That would be a very unhappy outcome.
No matter how you slice it, I don't see the Israelis as having the political/military capital or the political tin ear to pull it off.
For the contrary side, the Palestinian's certainly don't have the political/military capital to kick out the Jews, but they certainly seem politically clueless enough to try it.
Any attempt by Israel to drive the Palestians out of either the West Bank or Gaza will be viewed as Jewish irredentism (more here) and ethnic cleansing
If that is what needs to be done, then we will have to do it irregardless of how it will be viewed.
That's trivially true, naftali. I maintain that such driving out the Palestinians would run a grave risk of starting a World War, for which Israel would be blamed, and which would place Israel's existence in peril. I also maintain it doesn't need to be done.
In addition, I believe that most Israelis don't want to drive out the Palestinians. I suspect they view it as Jewish irredentism and ethnic cleansing and believe that those are not the right things to do.
And without the votes in Israel, it's not going to happen.
I"m also sure you do not have a handle on what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Jews living in our holy land, almighty polls notwithstanding.
Votes are meaningless when push comes to shove, only power and Halacha mean anything then.
First it will take palestinian terrorists using poison gas attacks in Israel, which probably isn't too far off, THEN Israel will have the justification to cleanse the land of the scum (hey, ethnic cleansing IS a good description, eh?).
I just hope Israel is smart enough to have the logistics planned out ahead of time so when/if the time is right they can make it happen ASAP. And of course I will fully support them.
The Palestinians can be given free passage to Iran, since Iran loves them so much. Syria and Europe too.
If that is what needs to be done, then we will have to do it irregardless of how it will be viewed.
You can make that statement about any problem.
I"m also sure you do not have a handle on what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Jews living in our holy land, almighty polls notwithstanding.
I didn't base my opinion on polls, which I have little faith in. I base my opinion on the fact that the Israelis have not driven out the Palestinians yet, and that they always take such care to respect human rights, even in a war zone. If the Israelis wanted to drive them out, they have had plenty of provocation and chances.
First it will take palestinian terrorists using poison gas attacks in Israel, which probably isn't too far off, THEN Israel will have the justification to cleanse the land of the scum (hey, ethnic cleansing IS a good description, eh?).
Yes, that would be a good reason to take, hold, and depopulate at least some of the West Bank and or Gaza.
If that is what needs to be done, then we will have to do it irregardless of how it will be viewed.
You can make that statement about any problem.
Clever.
I"m also sure you do not have a handle on what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Jews living in our holy land, almighty polls notwithstanding.
I didn't base my opinion on polls, which I have little faith in. I base my opinion on the fact that the Israelis have not driven out the Palestinians yet, and that they always take such care to respect human rights, even in a war zone. If the Israelis wanted to drive them out, they have had plenty of provocation and chances.
Just the same. (Yes, this is also clever.)
[California Josh says:] First it will take palestinian terrorists using poison gas attacks in Israel, which probably isn't too far off, THEN Israel will have the justification to cleanse the land of the scum (hey, ethnic cleansing IS a good description, eh?).
Yes, that would be a good reason to take, hold, and depopulate at least some of the West Bank and or Gaza.
One day soon the Jews will stop asking the Goyim for their opinions and permissions. Bank on it. or don't.
Moshiach Now
1.2.2008 11:28am
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
I believe the optimal approach falls under the heading of "targetted assassinations".
I believe the strategic objective is to alter the culture of the "Palestinians" in such a way that they "love their children more than they hate Jews".
I would do this in two steps. First, I would crystalize the cancer, pinning it down in a position of high public exposure. This step has already taken place in Gaza. Second, I would guide it towards self-immolation or apoptosis. Paranoia is a useful element on this path.
Waging total war against "civilian" populations is not socially acceptable. That is not an insurmountable obstacle, though, as terrorists are strongly inclined towards self-destruction.
The terrorists and the nations that support them are both crazed and animalistic. The infrastructure that supports Hamas is made up of the foot soldiers (the guys with guns), the middlemen (the financiers and propagandists) and the terror/political leaders in Gaza, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc.. If Israel is smart enough to target the elusive terrorist leaders, they should also know that the weakest point in this infrastructure is the middlemen.
Another weak point is America and Europe's willingness to believe the implausible lie that terrorists are not supported by the governments in the West Bank, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria. For instance, there is plenty of concrete proof that Saudi Arabia was directly responsible for 9/11. Getting that information in front of American and European eyes would accomplish a lot.
Let them be 'self sufficient' like Hamas wants them to be.
Whenever a rocket is fired, artillery, and lots of it, is fired back.
Let them keep multiplying like rabbits, and resort to cannibalism.
I think that would be worse than carpet bombing them, but they certainly deserve it. In fact, they've earned it.
If there is any people who deserve total war against them, it's the palestineans of gaza.
HA. Yeah, well firing rockets into cities, suicide bombing buses, and training your children to be 'martyrs' is not socially acceptable either. They deserve a taste of their own medicine. And as for this morally superior BS, well, Israel can be morally superior AFTER their objectives have been achieved.
If mosquitoes keep stinging me, I'm going to give up on diplomacy and do my best to kill them all, and if that means draining the entire swamp via extreme methods, so be it. And I know some good fish live in the swamp, but it's their job to eat the mosquito larvae so they don't grow up and sting me, and if they don't then they'll share in their fate when their entire ecosystem is destroyed.
"Socially Acceptable" is only a consideration as far as as an appearance. It's window dressing. That said, it does have value as such.
Rephrasing, I advocate assembling those who are obsessed with death and destruction, and introducing them to their own feet.
Which is why I have a tough time taking the PLIC seriously.
Yes, they are.
If the target is Israeli or American, these tactics are socially acceptable in the contemporary world.
Well then, I'm sure the palestineans of gaza will completely understand when Israel carpet bombs their cities. After all, it's socially acceptable. It's not like they'd act like hypocrites now, would they?
I wouldn't shed a tear. Well, no, I might. One.
At this point, I regard the "peace loving international community" as part of the "terrain". It is something to be known, understood, and dealt with. Moral judgements of cranial locations are not part of the art of war. Knowing the precise cranial locations is.
Fight the war you have, not the war you want.
Then that part of the Land of Israel shall be peaceful again.
Otherwise, this all amounts an endless process of applying band-aids to cure a cancer.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Unfortunately, I think the Euroweenies would jump up and down and stomp their feet and say how evil the Jews were. Things went badly the last time they got carried away with that one.
The rest of the Middle East would probably react similarly badly.
"Palestine" and "Evil Jooos" are distractions used by the regimes of the Middle East. I'd rather help that propaganda explode in their faces than reinforce it.
On the other hand, having Hamas implode in a gory spectacle of backbiting and savagery (ala AQI) would help deal with Iran, particularly if Iran's hand was visible in the affair.
I only see one really clean way to deal with Iran. I'll post it to Dean's World when I'm ready.
Main Force remains an option, just not preferred. I don't support it for anything less than regime change.
Then we 'negotiate' with them for 4+ years, and string them along just like they have done to us.
Then we make an offer to airdrop food and medicine, and get them to promise to not shoot down our aircraft. After all, it's a humanitarian mission, right?
We then air drop weapons and ammo over Tehran, and hope they get put to use by the people.
Then Bush has an air force officer say "uhh, I was an undiagnosed dyslexic, I checked the wrong box on the form. Sorry"
I was ANGRY after 9/11 when Palestinians danced in celebration, but the dancers were not responsible for the atrocity. I was ANGRY after 9/11 when virtually no Islamic religious leader in the U.S. could denounce the actions without the qualification, "But given the way the U.S supports Israel, you can understand..." I could not understand, period. And frankly, because of the authoritarian nature of Islam as a religion it is easy to argue that the attitude from the Mosques bears some responsibility for 9/11. I am ELATED that Islamic religious authorities are now denouncing terrorism via the Iraq war; I am ANGRY that this did not occur until terrorists began targeting other followers of Islam. Given the intransigence of Islamic religious leaders and their importance in “governing” the peoples of the mosques, a major benefit of the Iraq war is redirecting terrorism to others-than-Americans.
I'll be really up front and say flat out that I don't have an answer to the Mid East problem, so asking for one from me is pointless. Targeted assination is clearly a way (maybe the only way) to stop those directly responsible for terrorism.
Uhh, sorry. Palestinians will be held responsible for what Hamas does (they elected them), and Islamic Jihad, and any other terrorist who they tolerate on their soil. They have a choice: fight the terrorists and maybe die, or suffer in their fate and certainly die. To the palestinians I say: Tough shit, you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Wait, Hamas was elected. Did you forget that?
That's their problem, not ours.
Agreed. Having Al Qaeda defeated in the Sunni heartland by their former allies is a stunning victory for us. Iraqis may hate terrorism to such a degree now that they'll be happy to side with us against them in the future.
You can make an excellent case that Palestinian irredentism and desire for ethnic cleansing has been a major cause of the conflict in the Near East. But the Palestinians haven't had Germany's success, so they are pitied as underdogs, not hated as agressors. The Israelis, however, have been quite successful, generally, of late. So the world hates them as agressors rather than pitying them as underdogs.
(Maybe Israel should have given Gaza and the West Bank back to Egypt and Jordan, less a small amount of strategic territory and the rest of Jerusalem, almost immediately after the 1967 war as part of the cease fire agreement.)
If Israel did kick out the Palestinians it might result in another World War, for which Israel would likely be blamed. That would be a very unhappy outcome.
No matter how you slice it, I don't see the Israelis as having the political/military capital or the political tin ear to pull it off.
For the contrary side, the Palestinian's certainly don't have the political/military capital to kick out the Jews, but they certainly seem politically clueless enough to try it.
Yours,
Wince
If that is what needs to be done, then we will have to do it irregardless of how it will be viewed.
You don't agree?
In addition, I believe that most Israelis don't want to drive out the Palestinians. I suspect they view it as Jewish irredentism and ethnic cleansing and believe that those are not the right things to do.
And without the votes in Israel, it's not going to happen.
Yours,
Wince
The World is an unpredictable place.
And the Jews are an unpredictable people.
I"m also sure you do not have a handle on what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Jews living in our holy land, almighty polls notwithstanding.
Votes are meaningless when push comes to shove, only power and Halacha mean anything then.
Push is slowly coming to shove.
Naftali
I just hope Israel is smart enough to have the logistics planned out ahead of time so when/if the time is right they can make it happen ASAP. And of course I will fully support them.
The Palestinians can be given free passage to Iran, since Iran loves them so much. Syria and Europe too.
That may be, but this statement is trivally true:
If that is what needs to be done, then we will have to do it irregardless of how it will be viewed.
You can make that statement about any problem.
I"m also sure you do not have a handle on what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Jews living in our holy land, almighty polls notwithstanding.
I didn't base my opinion on polls, which I have little faith in. I base my opinion on the fact that the Israelis have not driven out the Palestinians yet, and that they always take such care to respect human rights, even in a war zone. If the Israelis wanted to drive them out, they have had plenty of provocation and chances.
First it will take palestinian terrorists using poison gas attacks in Israel, which probably isn't too far off, THEN Israel will have the justification to cleanse the land of the scum (hey, ethnic cleansing IS a good description, eh?).
Yes, that would be a good reason to take, hold, and depopulate at least some of the West Bank and or Gaza.
Yours,
Wince
Clever.
Just the same. (Yes, this is also clever.)
One day soon the Jews will stop asking the Goyim for their opinions and permissions. Bank on it. or don't.
Moshiach Now
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.