Meritocracy
Dave Price
I was watching 300, Frank Miller's epic paean to the Spartan last stand against Persian invaders which helped preserve the fragile beginnings of Western Civilization, and being curious about some of the details I took a glance at the Wikipedia entry for the Battle of Thermopylae. While the movie isn't absolutely accurate, I was surprised how accurate some of the dialogue turns out to have been — "our arrows will blot out the sun" threat and the "then we will fight in the shade" rejoinder apparently really happened, and they really did throw the Persian messengers into a well, telling them they would find plenty of "earth and water" below.
I also happened upon this, which struck me as an interesting statement on early Western values:
Xerxes was curious as to what the Greeks were trying to do (presumably because there were so few numbers) and had some Arcadian deserters interrogated in his presence. The answer was that all the other men were participating in the Olympic Games. When Xerxes asked what the prize for the winner was, "an olive-wreath" came the answer. Upon hearing this, Tigranes, a Persian general, said: "Good heavens, Mardonius, what kind of men are these that you have pitted against us? It is not for money that they contend but for glory of achievement!" (Godley translation).[54]
On the other hand, taken as simply a story of heroes, it works (although it's not exactly inspiring). The book Heroes: Saviors, Traitors, and Supermen: A History of Hero Worship was very interesting and enlightening on this, especially when it described ancient Sparta in the section on Alcibiades.
Not to throw a wet stinking blanket on you, but if we can't even agree with what was said 3 years ago, how can the word "accuracy" be thrown around so confidently?
We tend to dramatize historical events to make them more epic or "movie-like" for lack of a better term. See what Hollywood has done to us? I even imagine a powerful soundtrack to the battle as it occurred!
What I think we have here is historical fiction versus fictional history. We tend to spice things up to make them more appealing to the masses, however, they tend to omit things like the urine pits, burning shit-holes, and all the other logistical elements that go along with a prolonged military conflict.
Those dialogues probably never took place, but were rather authored some time after the battles by creative historical writers.
Well, accurate in the sense that that's what Herodotus' account says, which is generally considered authoritative, though not of course infallible.
Re dramatization: Victor Hanson has made the point that the Greeks themselves engaged in precisely this kind of idealization. If they were around today, this is probably the kind of movie they would have made about the battle.
You have issues.
It starts with Dilios' narration and ends with Dilios concluding the story just before a new battle.
300 isn't history and was never suppose to be history. It's propaganda pure and simple.
Like all great war epics are that bear no resemblance to real history.
I don't think comics are "supposed" to be any one thing any more than a novel is "supposed" to be a certain way.
And you're rude. Glad we talked.
As an avid comic book reader I have to agree. Comic books are nothing more than a visual way to tell a story. They aren't "supposed" to be anything more than that.
And I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that feel Miller's 300 is exactly the kind of good vs. evil story that Hokie says it isn't. It's a matter of personal choice.
But I'm sure the many Duck Tales fans out there will be surprised to learn that they're not actually reading a comic book at all.
Molon labe. ;-)
Heh. Indeed.
And Thucydides is considered to have had a higher standard of historical writing that Herodotus( not to discount his efforts.).
Another important thing to keep in mind when considering Greek historical accounts (and this is also a feature of other Greek genres) is the role the Persians played in the narrative, not merely as the perfect military antagonists, but also as the essential foil for all that the authors wish to present as "Greek." The Persians are an alien culture to the ideal Greeks: they are vain where the Greeks are modest, rich where the Greeks are poor, numerous where the Greeks are sparse, cowardly where the Greeks are brave, feminine where the Greeks are masculine. So you are indeed correct that the Greeks valued such things, but one must be careful not to overestimate the degree to which their Eastern rivals did not.
Farther off subject, but I can hardly resist adding it at this point: Xenophon himself, though an Athenian, was not fond of his home city and their maddening democratic politics (and vice versa, as he was exiled at some indeterminate point) relying instead upon Spartan allies. (The Athenians had at any rate lost the Peloponnesian War to the Spartans by this juncture.)
Who knows, maybe Miller will do an adaptation of The Ten Thousand. It's a great story.
Hokie, I remember the original film "The Warriors" from 1978. You're the first person who made the connection in my mind between that film and the story of Xenophon's immortal 10,000 Greek mercenaries who fought their home out of Persia.
I just can't get those images of King Leonidas and the 300 out of my head. I think every great people people has its epic story of the few against the many, in mortal combat. The Marines of Wake Island. The hundred or so southern volunteers of Bowie, Travis and Crockett at the Alamo. Chuikov's shrunken 62nd army holding off the Germans at Stalingrad until Zhukov could trap them in his mighty encirclement. Mordecai Anilevitch's jewish fighters who clawed their way through the basements and sewers of the Warsaw ghetto in 1943. Dowding's Few of Fighter Command in the English skies of the summer of 1940. And to be fair, the immortal japanese fighters who held off our Marines to the last man at Iwo Jima, and Mohnke's Waffen SS who held off the Russians in the streets of dying Berlin.
Greatness and valor is part of the epic story of humankind, and I salute them all.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
It would have been really easy to just pay the danegeld, but they didn't. They died, rather than submit, and it can be plausibly (though not conclusively) argued that they did so because they were influenced by a culture that was just beginning to understand that human beings should be allowed take part in the structuring of their societies.
It's an inspirational story that reveals what "we" value, even if our efforts to live up to those values often fail.
Those macho jerks may very well be the reason I am such a pampered and complacent softie who thinks more about what sort of stereo I'm going to ask my wife to give me for Christmas than whether or not I'm going to beg my non-elected king/emperor/dictator to spare my son's life because I displeased him (her) capricious sensibilities.
Those big lugs.
Were you a helot, you might not agree with such projection. Spartan society was a cruel thing. Furthermore, one must remember that the Athenians, who were infinitely more democratic than the Spartans, fell prey to the excesses of such government and ultimately lost the Peloponnesian War. Let us not draw comfortable yet inaccurate lessons from the past.
Go, stranger, and in Lacedaemon tell,
That here, obeying her behests, we fell.
Ώ ξειν', ἀγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα,
τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι
I know. It was a long time ago, and there was a lot learnin' to be done to get here, but they did get an earlier start than pretty much everybody else. Yes, they had slavery, as did pretty much everybody else. Democracy, which began imperfectly (welcome to reality) eventually turned on the institution of slavery, which predates democracy by a gazillion years, and killed it.
>> Furthermore, one must remember that the Athenians, who were infinitely more democratic than the Spartans, fell prey to the excesses of such government and ultimately lost the Peloponnesian War.
Thank God the Spartans didn't.
>> Let us not draw comfortable yet inaccurate lessons from the past.
Let also not ignore significant advancements just because those making them were not as perfect as we are.
Let us not mistake imperfection for illegitimacy
Man I wish you could edit these things.
Forget the "Thank God the Spartans didn't" part of my previous post. I misread the passage I was responding to.
Yes, the Athenians blew it. Democracy actually took a VERY long time to get going on a large scale.
2000 years after Athenian democracy, many smart guys believed - credibly - that democracy was not workable.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, believe me. There's no reason we can't view things critically, however.
Of course, Persian society was much more cruel.
While the Greeks did not practice liberal democracy or believe in universal human rights, they were the first society to have some well-articulated concept of individual rights extended to certain classes, and uniformly applied rule of law.
Complaining about their shortcomings is a bit like complaining that Lincoln did not, in addition to freeing the slaves, also give women the vote.
Agreed (Shakes hands...Wo! No hugging! Ok, ahem.)
I think you can be critical of Sparta (How could you not?), and still be grateful for what those men did.
In fact, the flawedness of Spartan society is so profound that it makes (to me) their stand at Thermopylae achingly poignant.
Yes, I said, "achingly poignant."
Western Civilization was saved by a bunch of macho jerks that I probably could not have tolerated the company of for five minutes and who probably would have drunk American beer from cans, and liked it (shudder). But, when the time came, they stepped up to the plate, in a BIG way.
"Gates of Fire" is a TERRIFIC fictionalized-but-quite-accurate-supposedly book that describes that battle and the lead-up to it in a way that is sympathetic AND critical of brutal and imperfectly democratic Sparta.
One character "Alexandros" if I remember, was truly tragic - a scholar or poet or musician in any other society forced into warriordom and who courageously makes the best of a cruel fate, and dies young, of course.
Achingly poignant.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.