On my way to pick up dinner just now it was impressed upon my heart that I only know what I know because God has chosen to reveal it to me. Had He not I would be lost and I therefore have nothing to be proud of. The finite knowledge of God and His ways that I do have was given to me by Him. I did not earn it. I did not discern it except by that which I was allowed to know and that which was revealed to me.
I humbly ask your forgiveness. Not just of CaliforniaJOSH but to any and all of Dean's World readers. I have sinned against you and assumed a position over you that was not mine to take.
We still may disagree on theological/scientific points but I do not wish to do so believing that I am somehow smarter or more enlightened than you. I know what it is I know because God wants it that way. It's that simple and I needed to be reminded of that.
It does come across as a bit arrogant in phrasing, but I think I know what you're driving at. And it was a manly thing to say.
Humility, and the realization that we don't know everything, can be real hard for a modern man to admit to or even know much about, so I think you should be commended highly for your confession in that sense.
If you or Arnold think I wrote the post to impress you, or grovel in a way more appealing to you, you're sorely mistaken. I'm thankful that Jack G. understood what I was saying, even if I didn't word it as well as he thinks I should.
I'd say it's the heart that matters but I suppose you and Arnold feel differently. That's alright. It's not for me to decide the rightness or wrongness of what you feel.
I put myself above people, I got self-righteous, and I had no right to do so. All I am and all I know is because it was given to me. I have no right to flaunt it.
If you have a problem grasping that concept... there's nothing I can say or do more to make you understand.
You have my forgiveness. I don't consider what you've done to be a sin either. No bad feelings here. I wish I had enough free time to make my posts better, especially my anti-religion rant from a few threads back. I'm quite disappointed with the quality of that post, I could of done much better. And I'm sure I angered you by my rejection of your religion.
Let us both act as allies and work together to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians, else this world will go to shit within our lifetime and these petty disagreements will mean nothing in comparison.
Let us both act as allies and work together to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians, else this world will go to shit within our lifetime and these petty disagreements will mean nothing in comparison.
This I can enthusiastically and whole-heartedly agree with you on.
You questioned my sincereity. What reason have you to do so? What have I gained by writing this post? Do I stand to profit in some way?
If so I've made a poor investment because right off the bat you and Arnold bring my sincerity into question.
So, if I'm insincere, what have I gained? Please tell me. I'd really like to know.
And I'm not confessing anything. I wronged an individual publicly it's the apropriate thing to make amends publicly. Had I done the same thing privately I'd agree with your assessment that the internet isn't a confessional. But I didn't.
I'd hope all people, should they wrong someone publicly, try to make amends publicly. If you have no problem shooting your mouth off for everyone to hear you'd better be man enough to try to clean it up for everyone to see.
If anything that's something the internet is sorely lacking. There are waaaay to many people shooting their mouths off and not enough people admiting when they've made a mistake.
If doing so turns the internet into a "confessional" I'd say we're all better for it.
There's a great Psalm (131) that says roughly, "My heart is not too proud, neither do I waste myself in matters too great and wonderful for me; surely I have calmed my soul..." Sounds to me like you found the place.
{And for what it's worth, I finished 5 semesters of quantum mechanics last year.}
It would be wise for those who think that science somehow dsproves religon to remember that we humans didn't even know about nuclear radiation until just a fews years before 1900, QM later. Those fields have had an INCREDIBLE impact on life-as-we-know-it. It is unbelievably arrogant to say that somehow we now know enough to say that science rules out God.
And you have every right to be.
I'm saying I understood his point, not that I'm particularly enthused by his phrasing.
I'm saying humility is a virtue, and like all virtues it starts somewhere, and in someway. Virtues are kinda like savings accounts, they rarely start out being worth enough to retire on, but if you keep working at them diligently, sooner or later you'll probably end up a lot wealthier than your neighbor who doesn't bother.
I'm glad he's showing some, because I happen to think humility before God and men is a virtue. Before God because nobody knows as much as he thinks he does, and certainly not as much as God, and before men because it is a spiritual virtue which is more likely to win their fellow man to other virtues than just about any other virtue, and so a little humility never hurt even the very best of men.
But it ain't a common virtue in modern life, I'll certainly grant ya that, and the culture does little to instill it. But still, it beats the hell outta the alternative.
So whereas I think he still has a ways to go in this particular respect (and don't we all just to tell the truth, no matter how wise we think we are, and indeed the truly wise no that they're never as wise as they think they are), and I understand your point, I'm glad to see him on the road, and so I get his too.
And confession is good for the soul. Reminds us that we're not all that, and helps remind us that getting there takes some work. So I'm with him there too.
All in all I see both sides of this, but truth be told, in my opinion, best he act on what he feels led to really led to act on, than not try at all. Because when we try we have a decent shot at achieving, even if imperfectly, and when we don't try at all, then our imperfections remain blatantly obvious even if we never admit to them.
So to Kevin I say good job, and be humble.
Just next time try and be a little bit more humble about it.
But I have to say this to ya too.
Sometimes men will criticize ya even if your heart is in the absolutely right place and because they read ya wrong. Just remember they too are men, and have their own limitations of perception, especially into the hearts of other men. If they misunderstand ya then it may just be because, like you, they have their faults too. And sometimes they will criticize you, and be absolutely right in what they say, even if they were driving at something you really weren't.
In other words all men are a little lower than the angels, but that also means we're a helluvah long ways from perfect.
I thought this was one of Kevin’s best posts in a long time.
Of course, you have to be familiar with his frequent “I’m holier than thou, but I can’t help it” style. In that context, I think there is a sincere apology in there.
And I get the feeling he is becoming increasingly frustrated trying to argue matters of faith with logic. And IMO, that’s a good thing.
it isnt clear to me why theres a pile on here on Kevin. Kevin understands his faith to be a matter of divine providence, rather than a journey of reason. From within that context, his post makes sense as does his apology.
Those of us who demand accomodation on the field of reason in debate would do well to extend that same courtesy to those who argue on matters of faith.
I would rather die of some malady than from the endless boredom emanating from he whom I think protesteth too much.
No one is forcing you to read my post nor write about it - twice now.
And odd thing for someone bored to do.
Usually, when I'm bored, I just leave, rather then letting everyone know just how bored I really am. Someone really doth protesteth too much... and I don't think it's me.
Jaymaster,
Of course, you have to be familiar with his frequent “I’m holier than thou, but I can’t help it” style. In that context, I think there is a sincere apology in there.
A fair observation. One I shall endevour to correct in the future.
Aziz,
Kevin understands his faith to be a matter of divine providence, rather than a journey of reason. From within that context, his post makes sense as does his apology.
Thanks for making it clear to those that may not get where I was coming from. I'm glad you understand since you've been on the receiving end of some of the things I've apologized for. My apology was aimed at you as much as CaliforniaJOSH or anyone else.
I am of the opinion that people who post on blogs, myself included, generally think their opinions are better than others. The holier than thou syndrome many of us have, or brighter than thou in some, is why we think our opinions count. It is admirable for someone to post a public apology for feeling that way. Whether his apology came because God laid it on his heart, or because his mother taught him good manners, it was a sincere apology and to throw it back in his face is the greatest form of "holier than thou" I have seen in a long time. Why you guys think that makes you look good is a mystery to me. And don't think I will care what you say about me. I am 71 and old enough to take it.
I mainly post for my own amusement, ego, and self-satisfaction.
And if you don't think that's so, just ask some of the old-timers who have been around Dean's World for five years or more. They'll all confirm that I'm the self-centered guy that I see every time I look in the mirror and laugh my head off.
I'm glad you survived to age 71. I'm 73. Which means I'm getting to the age when I'll be too old to do anything other than take whatever life is good enough to put in my mouth or pocket. Before someone else reaches out to grab it.
Life is simultaneously beautiful, uproariously funny, and cruel as hell.
Arnold,
I've been around here a very long time also, I just don't get involved with these disputes very often. But it really rattled my cage to see an apology thrown back into someones face like that.
And I think you proved my point - you post for your amusement, ego and satisfaction. Just like me, showing how bright you are. I plan to be around a whole lot longer, too. How does 90 sound? I may not be doing much but slurring my speech by then but I plan to stay interested.
Just don't slur your keystrokes. On the blogworld, nobody will ever know or even give a damn how you vocalize your thoughts.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
11.13.2007 9:55pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
But do carry on.
If I read you as I think you intended on your take on this weird post, then I'm with you 100 percent.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
It does come across as a bit arrogant in phrasing, but I think I know what you're driving at. And it was a manly thing to say.
Humility, and the realization that we don't know everything, can be real hard for a modern man to admit to or even know much about, so I think you should be commended highly for your confession in that sense.
I'm probably still more than under-impressed.
Then again, I may have missed something in religion 101.
If you or Arnold think I wrote the post to impress you, or grovel in a way more appealing to you, you're sorely mistaken. I'm thankful that Jack G. understood what I was saying, even if I didn't word it as well as he thinks I should.
I'd say it's the heart that matters but I suppose you and Arnold feel differently. That's alright. It's not for me to decide the rightness or wrongness of what you feel.
I put myself above people, I got self-righteous, and I had no right to do so. All I am and all I know is because it was given to me. I have no right to flaunt it.
If you have a problem grasping that concept... there's nothing I can say or do more to make you understand.
So, I won't say or do anything more.
Let us both act as allies and work together to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians, else this world will go to shit within our lifetime and these petty disagreements will mean nothing in comparison.
This I can enthusiastically and whole-heartedly agree with you on.
I'd say it's the heart that matters but I suppose you and Arnold feel differently....
That is kind of insulting on its very own, Kevin.
My initial comment was not in any way whatsoever about humiliation (If you or Arnold think I wrote the post to impress you, or grovel ...blah, blah ),
It really was about humility, not too much of which has presented itself thus far.
Then, again, the internet isn't a confessional, so I could be wrong.
If so I've made a poor investment because right off the bat you and Arnold bring my sincerity into question.
So, if I'm insincere, what have I gained? Please tell me. I'd really like to know.
And I'm not confessing anything. I wronged an individual publicly it's the apropriate thing to make amends publicly. Had I done the same thing privately I'd agree with your assessment that the internet isn't a confessional. But I didn't.
I'd hope all people, should they wrong someone publicly, try to make amends publicly. If you have no problem shooting your mouth off for everyone to hear you'd better be man enough to try to clean it up for everyone to see.
If anything that's something the internet is sorely lacking. There are waaaay to many people shooting their mouths off and not enough people admiting when they've made a mistake.
If doing so turns the internet into a "confessional" I'd say we're all better for it.
Merely had a problem with the part where G-D spoke to you on the way to pick up dinner and the self-serving internet confession.
On the other hand, had you read and understood my first comment, you may well have validly replied---
Hey, you know what, you're right, I was being a jerk with CalifJosh. Sorry 'bout that.
That way you wouldn't be dumping on me or Arnold.
{And for what it's worth, I finished 5 semesters of quantum mechanics last year.}
It would be wise for those who think that science somehow dsproves religon to remember that we humans didn't even know about nuclear radiation until just a fews years before 1900, QM later. Those fields have had an INCREDIBLE impact on life-as-we-know-it. It is unbelievably arrogant to say that somehow we now know enough to say that science rules out God.
And you have every right to be.
I'm saying I understood his point, not that I'm particularly enthused by his phrasing.
I'm saying humility is a virtue, and like all virtues it starts somewhere, and in someway. Virtues are kinda like savings accounts, they rarely start out being worth enough to retire on, but if you keep working at them diligently, sooner or later you'll probably end up a lot wealthier than your neighbor who doesn't bother.
I'm glad he's showing some, because I happen to think humility before God and men is a virtue. Before God because nobody knows as much as he thinks he does, and certainly not as much as God, and before men because it is a spiritual virtue which is more likely to win their fellow man to other virtues than just about any other virtue, and so a little humility never hurt even the very best of men.
But it ain't a common virtue in modern life, I'll certainly grant ya that, and the culture does little to instill it. But still, it beats the hell outta the alternative.
So whereas I think he still has a ways to go in this particular respect (and don't we all just to tell the truth, no matter how wise we think we are, and indeed the truly wise no that they're never as wise as they think they are), and I understand your point, I'm glad to see him on the road, and so I get his too.
And confession is good for the soul. Reminds us that we're not all that, and helps remind us that getting there takes some work. So I'm with him there too.
All in all I see both sides of this, but truth be told, in my opinion, best he act on what he feels led to really led to act on, than not try at all. Because when we try we have a decent shot at achieving, even if imperfectly, and when we don't try at all, then our imperfections remain blatantly obvious even if we never admit to them.
So to Kevin I say good job, and be humble.
Just next time try and be a little bit more humble about it.
But I have to say this to ya too.
Sometimes men will criticize ya even if your heart is in the absolutely right place and because they read ya wrong. Just remember they too are men, and have their own limitations of perception, especially into the hearts of other men. If they misunderstand ya then it may just be because, like you, they have their faults too. And sometimes they will criticize you, and be absolutely right in what they say, even if they were driving at something you really weren't.
In other words all men are a little lower than the angels, but that also means we're a helluvah long ways from perfect.
It's just something to think about anyways.
Of course, you have to be familiar with his frequent “I’m holier than thou, but I can’t help it” style. In that context, I think there is a sincere apology in there.
And I get the feeling he is becoming increasingly frustrated trying to argue matters of faith with logic. And IMO, that’s a good thing.
Those of us who demand accomodation on the field of reason in debate would do well to extend that same courtesy to those who argue on matters of faith.
Then of course, one can create a pile on if one so wishes. It will surely help the discussion.
Maybe its time for some music.
Are you and I mostly trying to say the same thing?
I think so, but its hard to tell sometimes.
That's what I was saying.
We might think so, but it's hard to tell sometimes.
I would rather die of some malady than from the endless boredom emanating from he whom I think protesteth too much.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
No one is forcing you to read my post nor write about it - twice now.
And odd thing for someone bored to do.
Usually, when I'm bored, I just leave, rather then letting everyone know just how bored I really am. Someone really doth protesteth too much... and I don't think it's me.
Jaymaster,
A fair observation. One I shall endevour to correct in the future.
Aziz,
Thanks for making it clear to those that may not get where I was coming from. I'm glad you understand since you've been on the receiving end of some of the things I've apologized for. My apology was aimed at you as much as CaliforniaJOSH or anyone else.
Beyond Parody.
Exactly so. ;^D
Good thing then that I'm trying to do the exact opposite!
I appreciate your support! :-)
I mainly post for my own amusement, ego, and self-satisfaction.
And if you don't think that's so, just ask some of the old-timers who have been around Dean's World for five years or more. They'll all confirm that I'm the self-centered guy that I see every time I look in the mirror and laugh my head off.
I'm glad you survived to age 71. I'm 73. Which means I'm getting to the age when I'll be too old to do anything other than take whatever life is good enough to put in my mouth or pocket. Before someone else reaches out to grab it.
Life is simultaneously beautiful, uproariously funny, and cruel as hell.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
I've been around here a very long time also, I just don't get involved with these disputes very often. But it really rattled my cage to see an apology thrown back into someones face like that.
And I think you proved my point - you post for your amusement, ego and satisfaction. Just like me, showing how bright you are. I plan to be around a whole lot longer, too. How does 90 sound? I may not be doing much but slurring my speech by then but I plan to stay interested.
Just don't slur your keystrokes. On the blogworld, nobody will ever know or even give a damn how you vocalize your thoughts.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.