Man, I can't believe you guys have me writing to defend President Carter. But I gotta...
1. I've known hunters who will shoot at cats and never bother to tell the owner. A lot of them consider cats to be nuisances or worse. At least President Carter showed remorse and owned up to what he did.
2. Bird lovers and cat lovers have this battle all the time, because cats love to eat birds. You might think it's excessive to stoop to firearms in this battle. And ordinarily, I might agree; but my own mother, peacenik that she is, has been known to use a pellet gun on the cats that prey in her birds. And those are her own grandson's cats! (But far worse than cats, in her opinion, are squirrels. It seems like squirrels
I do think that a pellet gun would've been more effective as a deterrent. The shotgun was a bit, shall we say, overkill.
But honestly, if he weren't an emeritus President of the United States, this would just be one of numerous similar incidents I've known in my life. No big deal.
Oops! Got interrupted during an anti-squirrel rant. Should've been "It seems like squirrels can defy the laws of physics in order to get to a bird feeder and eat all the seeds."
Martin, I started out thinking your way on this. Maybe you've brought me around to it again. The whole concept of using firearms of one sort or another to deal with critters is unknown to my personal experience, but to rural folk it's probably a lot less of a big deal.
On the other hand... Presidential stationery? Bet he wishes now he'd picked up the phone.
I'm not sure legally how that would play out. Are birds that you feed livestock? If so it falls under the law that allows ranchers to kill predators in the act of harassing their livestock. Though I'm not sure that house cats count, I know that dogs do. My dog got peppered with bird shot and hit over the head with a shovel because he was chasing the neighbor's chickens. I was pissed at the time, but now I know that he was justified in protecting his chickens, and the dog was fine, though he was a bit spooked around shovels afterward.
I know quite a few people, living on property large enough, in states where allowed, who will use firearms to deter or kill cats camping their bird feeders. They're going to the effort to attract birds for their enjoyment, on their property. I don't think the concept of 'attractive nuisance' counts for cats who think that the bird feeder is an all-you-can-catch buffet.
Here in PA, that would have been illegal. Roaming cats can only be killed by government folks (police, game wardens, etc). And even then, the law says if they are shot, it has to be a single bullet to the head, or else its cruelty to animals.
There are two “outs” for civilians: they can be killed in self defense (not kidding), or if they are observed in the act of killing livestock. And wild birds don’t fall into that category.
Shooting cats is also allowed in areas which are under an official rabies warning. If a person in such an area believes a cat is “acting strangely”, they can pop it. I happen to be live in such an area, and I have seen some cats acting strangely…..
The law is ignored in a lot of locations. But as Martin mentioned, there is a true war on between bird folks and cat folks in many areas. So these laws have been put to the test quite a bit around here lately. Decision to prosecute seems to fall on the local DA.
The law is completely different with dogs. Any dog running loose on your own property can legally be shot. That goes back a century or so to some old game laws.
All that being said, Carter did violate one of the most basic rules of ethical firearm use: always shoot to kill. If you aren’t intending to kill what you are shooting at, a gun is not the proper tool for the job.
All that being said, Carter did violate one of the most basic rules of ethical firearm use: always shoot to kill. If you aren’t intending to kill what you are shooting at, a gun is not the proper tool for the job.
An excellent point. It's very hard to judge how much damage you'll do to any given animal (toughness varies wildly from species to species), so what will kill one animal cleanly will just injure another, and the difference isn't always intuitive, like the fact that the hippo and the cape buffalo are two of the most dangerous (and tough) animals in africa. Had he been closer to correct in his estimation of damage, he would have horribly injured the cat instead of killing it, so if you want to scare away, use a paintball or pellet gun and save the shotgun or rifle for when you want the animal dead.
I think the self defense option is related to rabies too. But I know it has been used against other animals, even protected species like bats.
I pack serious heat and carry a spot light in my car every night this time of year, because its prime rutting season for deer around here. More and more people are happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and getting attacked by horned up bucks. A couple years ago, two bucks were fighting right next to my mail box when I got out to get the mail on my way home from work. It was so dark I didn’t notice them (nor they me) until one of them hit the ground with a thud that sounded like a WWE body slam. Lesson learned.
I heard about a guy who was out hiking and was attacked by a good sized buck, which he killed with a pocket knife by repeatedly stabbing it in the head, neck and chest.
There is a guy in Galveston who is up on charges for shooting feral cats. There is a stretch of beach near the west end of the island, where there are endangered shorebirds nesting (shorebirds nest on the ground, mostly), and also a LOT of feral cats, some of whom have developed a taste for endangered songbirds. So he went out one (or more likely mroe than one) evening and started popping the feral cats. One of the guys manning the bridge to the mainland saw him, and called it in to the cops - apparently the bridge workers had 'adopted' some of the feral cats unofficially, leaving food out for them and such. Obviously, those cats would be the less wary ones which would hang around when some stranger pops out of a car with a firearm, so he was inadvertently shooting mostly 'their' cats. Animal cruelty is the charge there.
Forgive me while I rant a bit. Cats are a hot topic for me. In general, I consider myself an animal lover. And we have a pet cat (which causes me allergy suffering to no end!). But I do occasionally feel the need to shoot a cat.
I live in the woods in a semi-rural area. No pizza delivery, but we’re only 15 minutes or so from “civilization”. No streetlights, and off a secluded road. So we see a TON of cats that are just dumped out into the woods. Probably 15-20 a year pass through here.
Mother Nature takes care of the vast majority of them. I have seen them killed by other cats (number one cause), bob cats, coyotes, hawks, owls, foxes, snakes (I watched one big black snake eat 3 little kittens), fishers, and even by deer. It’s amazing to see how proficient the deer are at hunting down a cat. I don’t know if its some ancient instinctive thing or what, but they really get serious about it, and even hunt in packs. They kill with their front feet. I’ve been trying to get some video of that for 4-5 years now.
There are also truly “wild” feral cats, who have lived their entire lives in the wild. Some of them can make it a year or two before something gets them. And that’s long enough to reproduce and keep the cycle going. Unless you get to them as kittens, these cats fear humans as much as they fear any other predator. If they are abandoned by their mother (like if she gets killed), there is some hope for them as pets. But the vast majority of them seem to die after a month or two from disease, with a mother or without.
So we have a pretty standard process now. When a new cat shows up (at the birdfeeder or at the door), I do the “here kitty, kitty” test. That works well for separating the domesticated cats from the wild ones. The wild ones run away, FAST.
For domesticated ones, we’ll put out some food and water, and maybe some shelter in the winter. I’ll run an ad in the paper and put up a sign in case a neighbor lost a cat, or if maybe somebody might be looking for a new one. If nobody shows up, and the cat is tame enough and healthy, we’ll take it to the Humane Society.
If it’s too wild to catch, then I’ll usually let nature take its course.
It’s the ones in between that are troubling. Some are obviously sick. So I will occasionally resort to a mercy killing. If they act aggressive, it’s an easier decision.
So yes, I’m an occasional cat killer. Its probably legal, but I’m sure it’s a fuzzy area, and I worry about that sometimes. And I hate it every time I do it. But sometimes I feel it’s the best option.
I don't know. My grandfather used to keep a BB gun around to "pop" dogs which hung around his yard too much. It just raised a welt and sent them yelping off, lesson learned. I can see how a BB, aimed wrong, could kill a cat if it hit in just the right place.
OK, shooting a BB gun at a cat is probably cruel, but arguably justifiable, esp. if its feral and a nuisance and killing your birds.
Shooting someone's pet with birdshot is a just kind of psycho. That's almost into pulling the wings off of flies territory. I mean, if your kid did that, people would start suggesting maybe he needs counseling or even that he was a danger and shouldn't be allowed at school. There are other ways to shoo a cat.
A white beaver? There's some pretty good pictures, and it does seem to have the long ears.
We had problems with pigeons in our palm tree, so my dad had a slingshot. He didn't want to break car windows, though, so instead of lead shot he used large dried seeds. It was kind of fun when you got one— they really set up a fuss but weren't too hurt.
This was around the time when a lightning storm set a palm tree on fire right next to my school (the fire alarm got pulled after the BOOM-SNAP, probably because somebody thought one of our buildings got hit.) The entire drive home, I was envisioning something similar happening to our palm tree, and fried pigeon all over the lawn...
I stand corrected.
I just saw the photo on Wikipedia.
11.11.2007 8:06am
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
Actually, wait.
He shot a cat?
1. I've known hunters who will shoot at cats and never bother to tell the owner. A lot of them consider cats to be nuisances or worse. At least President Carter showed remorse and owned up to what he did.
2. Bird lovers and cat lovers have this battle all the time, because cats love to eat birds. You might think it's excessive to stoop to firearms in this battle. And ordinarily, I might agree; but my own mother, peacenik that she is, has been known to use a pellet gun on the cats that prey in her birds. And those are her own grandson's cats! (But far worse than cats, in her opinion, are squirrels. It seems like squirrels
I do think that a pellet gun would've been more effective as a deterrent. The shotgun was a bit, shall we say, overkill.
But honestly, if he weren't an emeritus President of the United States, this would just be one of numerous similar incidents I've known in my life. No big deal.
On the other hand... Presidential stationery? Bet he wishes now he'd picked up the phone.
Ryan
I have some personal experience in this topic….
Here in PA, that would have been illegal. Roaming cats can only be killed by government folks (police, game wardens, etc). And even then, the law says if they are shot, it has to be a single bullet to the head, or else its cruelty to animals.
There are two “outs” for civilians: they can be killed in self defense (not kidding), or if they are observed in the act of killing livestock. And wild birds don’t fall into that category.
Shooting cats is also allowed in areas which are under an official rabies warning. If a person in such an area believes a cat is “acting strangely”, they can pop it. I happen to be live in such an area, and I have seen some cats acting strangely…..
The law is ignored in a lot of locations. But as Martin mentioned, there is a true war on between bird folks and cat folks in many areas. So these laws have been put to the test quite a bit around here lately. Decision to prosecute seems to fall on the local DA.
The law is completely different with dogs. Any dog running loose on your own property can legally be shot. That goes back a century or so to some old game laws.
All that being said, Carter did violate one of the most basic rules of ethical firearm use: always shoot to kill. If you aren’t intending to kill what you are shooting at, a gun is not the proper tool for the job.
An excellent point. It's very hard to judge how much damage you'll do to any given animal (toughness varies wildly from species to species), so what will kill one animal cleanly will just injure another, and the difference isn't always intuitive, like the fact that the hippo and the cape buffalo are two of the most dangerous (and tough) animals in africa. Had he been closer to correct in his estimation of damage, he would have horribly injured the cat instead of killing it, so if you want to scare away, use a paintball or pellet gun and save the shotgun or rifle for when you want the animal dead.
Ryan
I believe that's usually in there for things like mountain lions, not the domestic tabby, though.
Ryan
I pack serious heat and carry a spot light in my car every night this time of year, because its prime rutting season for deer around here. More and more people are happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and getting attacked by horned up bucks. A couple years ago, two bucks were fighting right next to my mail box when I got out to get the mail on my way home from work. It was so dark I didn’t notice them (nor they me) until one of them hit the ground with a thud that sounded like a WWE body slam. Lesson learned.
Ryan
I live in the woods in a semi-rural area. No pizza delivery, but we’re only 15 minutes or so from “civilization”. No streetlights, and off a secluded road. So we see a TON of cats that are just dumped out into the woods. Probably 15-20 a year pass through here.
Mother Nature takes care of the vast majority of them. I have seen them killed by other cats (number one cause), bob cats, coyotes, hawks, owls, foxes, snakes (I watched one big black snake eat 3 little kittens), fishers, and even by deer. It’s amazing to see how proficient the deer are at hunting down a cat. I don’t know if its some ancient instinctive thing or what, but they really get serious about it, and even hunt in packs. They kill with their front feet. I’ve been trying to get some video of that for 4-5 years now.
There are also truly “wild” feral cats, who have lived their entire lives in the wild. Some of them can make it a year or two before something gets them. And that’s long enough to reproduce and keep the cycle going. Unless you get to them as kittens, these cats fear humans as much as they fear any other predator. If they are abandoned by their mother (like if she gets killed), there is some hope for them as pets. But the vast majority of them seem to die after a month or two from disease, with a mother or without.
So we have a pretty standard process now. When a new cat shows up (at the birdfeeder or at the door), I do the “here kitty, kitty” test. That works well for separating the domesticated cats from the wild ones. The wild ones run away, FAST.
For domesticated ones, we’ll put out some food and water, and maybe some shelter in the winter. I’ll run an ad in the paper and put up a sign in case a neighbor lost a cat, or if maybe somebody might be looking for a new one. If nobody shows up, and the cat is tame enough and healthy, we’ll take it to the Humane Society.
If it’s too wild to catch, then I’ll usually let nature take its course.
It’s the ones in between that are troubling. Some are obviously sick. So I will occasionally resort to a mercy killing. If they act aggressive, it’s an easier decision.
So yes, I’m an occasional cat killer. Its probably legal, but I’m sure it’s a fuzzy area, and I worry about that sometimes. And I hate it every time I do it. But sometimes I feel it’s the best option.
We used waterguns to dissuade our cats from doing stuff when I was young-- it's not going to harm a pet (a pet!) and it's quite funny besides.
I just thought it was odd he ran away from the wild rabbit and shot the pet kitty-cat.
Maybe, you don't know how low it took for him to build up his courage to do it.
Those rabbits, well, they just jump at you without any time to prepare.
Considering the evidence presented over the past 30 years, maybe Billy was the smart one….
1. He wasn't armed against the rabbit.
2. He shot the cat from "some distance".
If he had been armed and the rabbit had been "some distance" away, maybe he would've shot it it.
If he had been unarmed and the cat had been nearer, maybe he would've run.
We have no evidence, really.
Again, at least he owned up to it.
Shooting someone's pet with birdshot is a just kind of psycho. That's almost into pulling the wings off of flies territory. I mean, if your kid did that, people would start suggesting maybe he needs counseling or even that he was a danger and shouldn't be allowed at school. There are other ways to shoo a cat.
All good points.
Next thing you know, we'll be debating what the definition of "is" is.
Where's Aziz when you need him????
But writing about it... on presidential stationary? Sheesh.
If only the kitty were a Pali, it would be alive today.
Is there such a thing as Rabbitgram?
Sheesh. Ain't Dean learnt ya nuttin'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell#Birdshot
So were looking at a consistent behavioral pattern here.
FWIW,I strongly suspect the giant swimming rabbit was a beaver.
We had problems with pigeons in our palm tree, so my dad had a slingshot. He didn't want to break car windows, though, so instead of lead shot he used large dried seeds. It was kind of fun when you got one— they really set up a fuss but weren't too hurt.
This was around the time when a lightning storm set a palm tree on fire right next to my school (the fire alarm got pulled after the BOOM-SNAP, probably because somebody thought one of our buildings got hit.) The entire drive home, I was envisioning something similar happening to our palm tree, and fried pigeon all over the lawn...
I just saw the photo on Wikipedia.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.