Dean's World

saturday morning assertion

Aziz P

You kill an idea by creating a better idea.

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Steven DallaVicenza (mail):

Max Planck would disagree. New theories replace old when the proponents of the old theory grow old and die. So I suppose in the sense that a new idea prevents continuation of the old from one generation to the next you are right, but its not much of an active kill.

7.28.2007 11:00am

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LaurenQuipp (mail):

A better idea could work with the old idea as in terms of advancement.

7.28.2007 11:17am

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John_B (mail) (www):

You think old, outmoded, overtaken-by-facts theories actually die? How naive!!

Have you read that story about the couple arrested for 'desecrating the American flag'? It's been close to 40 years since the Supreme Court acknowledged that there is no crime in desecrating the flag.

I've yet to notice that 'Creationism' has disappeared in light of that new-fangled 'Evolution' thing.

Your assertion may apply within the narrow ranks of people on very specific issues which do not trespass the realms of emotion and belief.

7.28.2007 11:38am

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HokiePundit (RDB) W&M 1L (mail) (www):

John_B,

Of course, Occam's Razor would say that if Creationism hasn't been overtaken by Evolutionism then the latter isn't a better idea.

7.28.2007 11:40am

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JRogge:

The problem with the concept of a better idea is "better" is a matter of opinion. The best Sophistry and propaganda always trumps logic because logic is not innate to the human mind. In fact logic is contrary to the very ideas that are purported to hold society together. Thus, an idea is only better if and only if it is properly canonized.

7.28.2007 11:41am

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Mal (mail):

I would argue that the original idea and the new idea have to be tested in practice before either is "killed" or deemed better than the other. And, in order to be killed, the idea has to visibly fail and, more importantly, a majority of people must interpret the failure of the idea as being a failure of the idea without attributing it to some other factor.

This idea:

From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need.

has failed wherever it has been put into practice and was discredited when the USSR fell; however, there are still remnants of it that exist in our culture.

Kindly Inquisitors by Jonathan Rauch contains the best description I have read of our liberal system of knowledge and how ideas gain and lose currency.

7.28.2007 11:44am

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JRogge:

The idea that the Earth is round was tested. Although it is also commonly accepted, the idea of the Earth being flat is not dead and lives on. The eradication of an idea by testing cannot be accomplished by testing alone because people do not necessarily believe what they see with their eyes. While you can gather up a large majority to embrace a new idea, you very seldom can eradicate an idea if ever.

7.28.2007 12:05pm

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TallDave (mail) (www):

You kill an idea by creating a better idea.

Yep, that's the plan.

Hey, it worked in Eastern Europe.

7.28.2007 12:44pm

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John_B (mail) (www):

Hokie: Actually, Ockham would say that by keeping the discussion in one realm (science) is preferable to having to bring in another realm (religion), particularly since that second realm is unprovable, untestable, and unfalsifiable.

7.28.2007 1:02pm

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Elisha Feger (mail) (www):

I think Ockham would like his razor back so he can shave.

7.28.2007 1:33pm

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Foobarista:

It's often false. The problem is that "better" is extremely slippery, unless the idea is in a well-defined logical domain such as a scientific theory or mathematical proposition. The more "human-centric" the ideas, the more slippery the notions of "better" or "worse" get.

After all, most would agree that capitalism is superior to most other ways of organizing the world if judged on a materialistic basis, but those who dislike capitalism - or have a personal stake in a competing system - try to shift the definition of "better" towards things that are either not provable or measurable (like spiritual issues, etc) or things that are troublesome to argue without lengthy, honest analysis as opposed to sound-bite shouts and rants (such as environmental issues).

Sometimes, the only way to kill an idea is to introduce doubt that it is the _only_ idea, and wait for that idea's fanatics to die off. This is basically how the European wars around the Reformation burned themselves out.

7.28.2007 3:42pm

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Dishman (mail):

in order to be killed, the idea has to visibly fail and, more importantly, a majority of people must interpret the failure of the idea as being a failure of the idea without attributing it to some other factor.

That is approximately my operating assumption.

I would call an idea dead if:
1) The overwhelming majority of people reject it as a bad idea before even uttering it.
2) Someone uttering it would most likely be met with rebuke.
3) The rejection of the idea was woven into the fabric of society.

Once it has met these criteria, it becomes very difficult to bring it back. I say this as someone who has spent thousands of hours working to resurrect a dead idea.

7.28.2007 8:11pm

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JRogge:

There is an age old Zen koan which I am reminded of:

If a man has an idea in the forest and no one is around to hear it, is it still an idea?

:D

7.29.2007 1:01am

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Samuel Tai (mail):

Actually, it's:

You can kill an idea a man has, by convincing his wife of a better idea.

:)

7.29.2007 1:42pm

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Aziz (mail) (www):

I am content to have been silent this thread because I actually learned a few things :)

7.29.2007 7:18pm

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