Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Monday Assertion


Human nature is inherently flawed.

Posted by Dave Price | Permalink | Technorati Trackbacks
Martin L. Shoemaker (mail) (www):
Related assertion: there is nothing so obvious that somebody can't find a way to turn it into a research study.


Infants quickly learnt that using tactics such as fake crying and pretend laughing could win them attention. By eight months, more difficult deceptions became apparent, such as concealing forbidden activities or trying to distract parents' attention.

By the age of two, toddlers could use far more devious techniques, such as bluffing when threatened with a punishment.


This is news?
7.2.2007 5:27am
triticale (mail) (www):
Human nature is natural, and thus naturally less than perfect. The easiest way to tell a real diamond from a fake is by looking at the flaws. It just takes plenty of magnification.
7.2.2007 8:01am
maggie may - labrat:
Yeah - researchers are inherently flawed alright Martin. "Fake" crying means babies are liars? How about crying being their primary means of communication? If a baby cries for attention and not because their diaper is wet - that's "deceptive"? Why is it not simply crying for attention?
7.2.2007 8:07am
Dan the Highway guy (mail) (www):
It's only 'flawed' if you insist on holding up human nature to some idealistic standard. If you are more realistic in your definition of human nature, you'll include selfishness and other things that you seem to think are 'flawed'. I think it's more that your definition of human nature is flawed.
7.2.2007 9:00am
John_B (mail) (www):
Well, duh...

On the other hand, humans are pretty perfect at being human. Flawlessly so, in fact. The problem is in expectations and assumptions of what 'human perfection' means.

It's the same deal with the idea that if humans do it, it's not 'natural', as though humans--and their technology--were not natural. Our world is the natural result of and the consequence of the actions of a particular type of primate. A computer is as natural as a stick used to dig termites out of a log. It just has more parts.
7.2.2007 9:51am
zach.:
Dan's got a good point here. Human nature may be inherently deceptive, but is that a flaw?
7.2.2007 10:07am
DanielH:

Human nature is inherently flawed.

But conservatives have argued this for centuries; it's one of the main reasons, in fact, that they are so skeptical of revolutionaries.
7.2.2007 10:33am
Vic Stein (mail):
Humans are less than perfect... whats?

I never get how terms like this get used as if they were complete sentences, when half the meaning is simply left out.
7.2.2007 11:45am
TallDave (mail) (www):
Human nature may be inherently deceptive, but is that a flaw?

There's arguably none greater. Most evil gets done in the name of good.
7.2.2007 1:03pm
Ken Hall (www):
I am a little irritated by the imprecision of language that allows people to conflate bluffing and lying.

When someone bluffs in a poker game, is he or she saying, "I claim that my hand is better than it is," or "You haven't offered to pay enough yet to find out what's in my hand"?

I say it's the latter.
7.2.2007 2:26pm
Ronald Coleman (mail) (www):
I don't even understand the application of "flawed" to the quality of "human nature." It's like saying human nature is inherently 94%.
7.2.2007 3:46pm
MaryJ:
Well, well! My three children raised by me never lied to me! They are not flawed like a diamond, they are perfect!

I have another one to sell you about my grandchildren!!! SO THERE!
7.2.2007 5:27pm
MaryJ:
I'm on my way to play cards and I never heard of people bluffing, NOT ME! See you later alligator's.
7.2.2007 5:28pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
I don't even understand the application of "flawed" to the quality of "human nature."

I'm saying people are intrinsically evolved to be something less than ideal, as opposed to the viewpoint that we start out innocent babes and are corrupted by the evil, cruel world.

The truth is, we start out evil and cruel and deceptive and only learn to be good people through great effort, as our parents apply the cumulative work of hundreds of generations.
7.2.2007 7:09pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
MaryJ,

That's a credit to you. Nothing is more important than the kind of people we create.
7.2.2007 7:10pm
Sean Golden (mail) (www):
Conservatives have not argued that human nature is inherently flawed. They argue that human nature simply IS and that ideologies that are based on human beings acting as other than human beings are inherently flawed. Which is why communist and socialist experiments have so far all failed. Human beings do not "take according to their need and give according to their ability" and no amount of ideological brainwashing is going to change that.

As to Dean's assertion, to say that human nature is "flawed" implies there is some model of human nature that is "flawless" to which we can compare human nature. In the absence of such an example, the assertion is merely that, an assertion, as unprovable as any assertion that has no basis in practical reality.
7.2.2007 10:17pm
naftali (mail):
A whole study to show what is obvious to any astute parent. My wife has been calling our middle child "the comedian" since she was an infant.
7.2.2007 10:20pm
DanielH:

Conservatives have not argued that human nature is inherently flawed.

What about original sin?
7.3.2007 11:38am
TallDave (mail) (www):
"flawed" implies there is some model of human nature that is "flawless" to which we can compare human nature

Well, I like to think that Jesus guy came pretty close.

But again, this is mostly an argument against tabula rasa innnocence.
7.3.2007 2:38pm
Sean Golden (mail) (www):
TallDave and DanielH:

I concede that the fundamentalist religious subspecies of conservative may very well make the arguments as you have stated, but that is a subset of conservatism. Conservatism of the rational variety does not rely on supernatural arguments to describe human nature, nor to provide examples of perfect humans.
7.3.2007 5:49pm
DanielH:
Fundamentalist? I thought that the fallen nature of man was mainstream Christian doctrine.
7.3.2007 6:17pm

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