You can stifle human nature, repress it, torture it, but, as long as life remains, it will continue to be what it is.
If it is, as I believe, human nature to seek freedom and, consequently, truth, then however people may be abused, they will continue to do so. If the search for freedom is not human nature, then we'd best guard it very jealously, for what we've got is something rare, indeed.
Freedom is the nature of God. Oppression is the nature of Man.
We can see that the universe is set up in a way that encourages freedom; this is why liberal democracy succeeds and oppression fails. The fact that oppression is common anyway speaks to the nature of Man.
How is freedom "the nature of God"? The first thing God did with Adam was give him a rule.
Was it oppression by Adam to break that rule?
For that matter, Dave, I reject the proposed dichotomy between freedom and oppression. My children are not free to do with they want, but they are hardly oppressed, for example.
Ron, I think freedom is the nature of God in the sense that freedom is equivalent to having knowledge and power. God is perfectly omniscient and omnipotent, and thus perfectly free. Of course, God creates the laws of the universe, both physical and moral, on which human life and community depend. So, while God's knowledge and power create, human freedom is dependent on knowing these laws and acting accordingly. Further, as human freedom is dependent on following law, it is never a perfect freedom in the sense of God's freedom. However, I do think that breaking the law leads to more oppression and thus less freedom.
Maybe we're all (God and Man) free in one sense of the word, and maybe we're all not so free in one sense of the word, and it's actually the measure of responsibility, or lack thereof, by which we exercise and employ our liberty that tells the real difference.
A man who is free of all responsibility is slave to no-one but himself. And yet what a tyrannical master is liberty unchecked by any other master but himself.
I suspect that to be truly free a man must really never be free of the truth. Otherwise a man is eternally bound by the error of himself.
And what kind of liberty is that?
At a less philosophical level, I wonder if Roosevelt was right at all when he said that. The internet is famous as being a very free medium of communication, and while certainly one can find truth in it, there is a heck of a lot of falsehood as well.
However, I think we can definitively say from our expirience with the internet that porn is found when men are free to pursue it.
The first thing God did with Adam was give him a rule.
Adam was a fable told by Man. It is Man's nature to abuse God's word to oppress his brethren.
My children are not free to do with they want, but they are hardly oppressed, for example.
Minors lack capacity. But you are free to raise your children as you like. You can teach them that Bush is a jerk if you like, without worry of being beaten, imprisoned, or killed.
The internet is famous as being a very free medium of communication, and while certainly one can find truth in it, there is a heck of a lot of falsehood as well.
In the days of the Founders, the same was true of pamphleteers.
Freedom only allows us to find truth. It does not guarantee we will.
Ron, I think freedom is the nature of God in the sense that freedom is equivalent to having knowledge and power. God is perfectly omniscient and omnipotent, and thus perfectly free.
As an empiricist, I can only say that I observe a universe in which free societies prosper and oppressive ones do not. From this I conclude the creator of such a universe favors liberty.
The question of free societies prospering is an interesting one. I am inclined to agree, but I don't think we have a whole lot of empirical evidence their.
Certainly societies that we consider 'unfree' have prospered for a longer time then any of our current ones. At the moment of course it appears that what we call the free societies are being more successful then others, but whether this is a temporary situation or a permanent one we don't have much proof of.
There have of course been numerous historical examples of a less free people prospering more then freer people they had conflicts with, so it doesn't seem to be a law of nature that freedom and prosperity are perfectly linked.
Certainly societies that we consider 'unfree' have prospered for a longer time then any of our current ones.
They never reached a level of prosperity and security remotely comparable to what liberal democracies have achieved.
There have of course been numerous historical examples of a less free people prospering more then freer people
There really aren't many. The free Greeks remained secure against far more powerful enemies, and their philosophical descendants the Romans were the world's greatest empire. Of course, neither of them had anything like the freedom or prosperity we do today, they were just freer than other societies around at the time. Notions of free speech are very rare historically.
You've just 'abused God's word' to make a point about how people 'abuse God's word'.
Well, if you're willing to ignore evolution, assume that every other creation myth was inaccurate but this one isn't, and that Man is capable of accurately and unselfishly passing on holy words even if they did somehow come into possession of them, then I suppose you can accept the Bible as literal truth. But that's a lot to take on faith.
Again, I'm an empiricist. I take very little on faith.
People are often shocked when I tell them my basis for Christian faith is mostly empirical: Christianity works. But I generally don't hold with assertions of received wisdom. The parts of the Bible that interest me are primarily in red, and noteworthy more for their practical effect than their divine attribution.
Or, to put it another way, if someone with a halo showed up and told you pi was 3 and the Sun went around the Earth, would you accept his claim to be a messenger of God?
TallDave:
What I'm asserting is merely that "God's word" is a thing unto itself. To me, it doesn't matter if that makes God the biggest comedian or the biggest liar, or even if God's word is accurate - when I'm examining your claim. You have criteria for your choices. Whoopdedoo.
All I'm pointing out is that you're playing the Puritan when by admission you're quite the opposite.
Look, really simple - my comments have nothing to do with Heavenly discourse but only your own. To wit:
Adam was a fable told by Man.
This is a change from the recieved word as it is commonly acknowledged amongst Christians, Jews, Moslems - one of which you're claiming to be.
It is Man's nature to abuse God's word
Yes, and you're a man, right? So far you've proved it.
to oppress his brethren.
Oh, really? And what are you up to then? Merely looking out for the common weal, eh?
Don't you see? It's absurd on its face. Nothing to do with scientific accuracy, etc. as the idea to look for such confirmation within Theology would strike me as just as funny.
This is a change from the recieved word as it is commonly acknowledged amongst Christians, Jews, Moslems - one of which you're claiming to be.
Not really. For instance, among Jews there are several schools of thought which hold Man corrupted the holy word to some extent ot another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Judaism
Orthodox (characterized by Eliezer Berkovitz and Norman Lamm): "Verbal Revelation: The Torah, including both the Written and Oral Traditions, consists of the exact words of God. He gave it all as one piece at Sinai."
Conservative I (characterized by Isaac Lesser, Alexander Kohut, Abraham Joshua Heschel, and David Novak): "Continuous Revelation:God dictated His will at Sinai and other times. It was written down by human beings, however, and hence the diverse traditions in the Bible."
Conservative II (characterized by Ben Zion Bokser, Robert Gordis, Max Routtenberg and Emil Fackenheim): "Continuous Revelation: Human beings wrote the Torah, but they were divinely inspired."
Conservative III (characterized by Louis Jacobs, Seymour Seigel, Jacob Agus, David Lieber and Elliot Dorff): "Continuous Revelation: The Torah is the human record of the concounter between God and the People Israel at Sinai. Since it was written by human beings, it contains some laws and ideas which we find repugnant today."
Conservative IV/Reconstructionist (characterized by Mordecai Kaplan, Ira Eisenstein and Harold Schulweis): "No Revelation: Human beings wrote the Torah. No claim for divinity of the product."
Reform (characterized by the Movement's 1937 Guiding Principles): "Progressive revelation: The Torah is God's will written by human beings. As time goes on, we get to understand his will better and better (="progressive revelation").
Merely looking out for the common weal, eh?
I am but a humble seeker of truth. I claim no special love of fellow men, but I'm certainly not using allegations of Holy Word to claim dominion over other men, as has been common human practice forever.
Nothing to do with scientific accuracy, etc. as the idea to look for such confirmation within Theology would strike me as just as funny.
Then that is your folly, and your loss. I find mysticism primarily a deliberate exercise in futility.
Your statement was logically insupportable but you're too prideful to admit it
It's not logically insupportable. I gave logic to support it. You're the one eschewing logic in favor of stamping the entire Bible "Made By God" in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.
And I consider mysticism to be the empirical side of religion
Mysticism by definition cannot be the empirical side of anything.
mysticism: The belief that knowledge of divine truth or the soul's union with the divine is attainable by spiritual insight or ecstatic contemplation without the medium of the senses or reason.
empiricism:The proposition that the only source of true knowledge is experience. Search for knowledge through experiment and observation. Denial that knowledge can be obtained a priori.
Mysticism by definition cannot be the empirical side of anything.
Care to explain this statement? Mysticism is the direct human experience of God, while empiricism is an epistemological doctrine that all knowledge is based in human experience. If there is to be empirical knowledge of God, the only way to such would seem to be mysticism.
I see we cross-posted. There is nothing in your definition of empiricism that excludes mystic experience as a possible source of knowledge. In fact, many mystics have reported the process by which they acheived their experiences. Thus, their theories are not only grounded in experience, but are testable.
If you have not tried to reproduce such mystical experiences yourself, then you are rejecting them a priori, which contradicts your stated understanding of empiricism.
Experience is of two kinds. One is through the external senses: such are the experiments that are made upon the heaven through instruments in regard to facts there, and the facts on earth that we prove in various ways to be certain in our own sight. And facts that are not true in places where we are, we know through other wise men that have experienced them. Thus Aristotle with the authority of Alexander, sent 2,000 men throughout various parts of the earth in order to learn at first hand everything on the surface of the world, as Pliny says in his Natural History. And this experience is human and philosophical just as far as a man is able to make use of the beneficent grace given to him, but such experience is not enough for man, because it does not give full certainty as regards corporeal things because of their complexity and touches the spiritual not at all. Hence man's intellect must be aided in another way, and thus the patriarchs and prophets who first gave science to the world secured inner light and did not rest entirely on the senses...For grace makes many things clear to the faithful, and there is divine inspiration not alone concerning spiritual but even about corporeal things. In accordance with which Ptolemy says in the Centilogium that there is a double way of coming to the knowledge of things, one through the experiments of science, the other through divine inspiration, which latter is far the better as he says.
Of this inner experience there are seven degrees, one through spiritual illumination in regard to scientific things. The second grade consists of virtue, for evil is ignorance as Aristotle says in the second book of the Ethics. And Algazel [the Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali (1059-1111)] says in the logic that the mind is disturbed by faults, just as a rusty mirror in which the images of things cannot be clearly seen, but the mind is prepared by virtue like a well polished mirror in which the images of things show clearly. On account of this, true philosophers have accomplished more in ethics in proportion to the soundness of their virtue, denying to one another that they can discover the cause of things unless they have minds free from faults. Augustine relates this fact concerning Socrates in Book VIII, chapter III, of the City of God: to the same purpose Scripture says, to an evil mind, etc., for it is impossible that the mind should lie calm in the sunlight of truth while it is spotted with evil, but like a parrot or magpie it will repeat words foreign to it which it has learned through long practice. And this is our experience, because a known truth draws men into its light for love of it, but the proof of this love is the sight of the result. And indeed he that is busy against truth must necessarily ignore this, that it is permitted him to know how to fashion many high sounding words and to write sentences not his own, just as the brute that imitates the human voice or an ape that attempts to carry out the works of men, although he does not understand their purpose. Virtue, then, clears the mind so that one can better understand not only ethical, but even scientific things. I have carefully proved this in the case of many pure youths who, on account of their innocent minds, have gone further in knowledge than I dare to say, because they have had correct teaching in religious doctrine, to which class the bearer of this treatise belongs, to whose knowledge of principles but few of the Latins rise. Since he is so young (about twenty years old) and poor besides, not able to have masters nor the length of any one year to learn all the great things he knows, and since he neither has great genius or a wonderful memory, there can be no other cause, save the grace of God, which, on account of the clearness of his mind, has granted to him these things which it has refused to almost all students, for a pure man, he has received pure things from me. Nor have I been able to find in him any kind of a mortal fault, although I have searched diligently, and he has a mind so clear and far seeing that he receives less from instruction than can be supposed. And I have tried to lend my aid to the purpose that these two youths may be useful implements for the Church of God, inasmuch as they have with the Grace of God examined the whole learning of the Latins.
The third degree of spiritual experience is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which Isaiah describes. The fourth lies in the beatitudes which our Lord enumerates in the Gospels. The fifth is the spiritual sensibility. The sixth is in such fruits as the peace of God, which passes all understanding. The seventh lies in states of rapture and in the methods of those also, various ones of whom receive it in various ways, that they may see many things which it is not permitted to speak of to man. And whoever is thoroughly practiced in these experiences or in many of them, is able to assure himself and others, not only concerning spiritual things, but all human knowledge. And indeed, since all speculative thought proceeds through arguments which either proceed through a proposition by authority or through other propositions of argument, in accordance with this which I am now investigating, there is a science that is necessary to us, which is called experimental. I wish to explain this, not only as useful to philosophy, but to the knowledge of God and the understanding of the whole world: as in a former book I followed language and science to their end, which is the Divine wisdom by which all things are ordered.
If you have not tried to reproduce such mystical experiences yourself, then you are rejecting them a priori, which contradicts your stated understanding of empiricism.
Rejecting the existence of a non-sensable phenomenon isn't a priori knowledge, it's the essence of empiricism.
For instance, prove to me that we are not surrounded by invisible Magical Space Unicorns. How do you know they aren't there? Have you tried to experience them? I could assert I know they are there, although they cannot be sensed, and the assertion can't be disproved. That's why I don't like mysticism.
Empiricism is essentially the opposite of mysticism.
You can state this as many times as you want, but it doesn't constitute a proof.
The key difference is "without the medium of the senses or reason."
Yes and no -- mystics generally state they experience God through an inner, or sixth, sense. As I said before, there is no reason to reject such claims a priori.
Further, I think we must distinguish between the general category of empiricism and a specific variant of that doctrine, logical positivism. The latter doctrine was pretty conclusively dethroned by W.V.O. Quine in his seminal essay "Two Dogmas of Empiricism."
Rejecting the existence of a non-sensable phenomenon isn't a priori knowledge, it's the essence of empiricism.
But again, mysticism is based on a sense, just not on the five you are used to. Both al-Ghazali and St. John of the Cross went to lengths explaining why most peoples' hearts, which they said are windows on the world of the divine, have been sullied, and proposed exact methodologies to clean these windows and thus to develop this sense. Rejecting their theories a priori has little to do with empiricism; it is perhaps based on a prejudice rooted in common sense, but it does not quite meet the exacting standards of science.
There's no physical evidence for such a sixth sense. Again, it's not a priori to reject something for which there's no physical evidence; empiricism demands you provide some physical evidence.
Mysticism does not. My sixth sense tells me we're surrounded by Magical Space Unicorns. Prove it's not true.
Now if I claimed I was surrounded by paper airplanes, that could be evaluated with sight, sound, hearing, smell, taste, etc. But since I've made a mystical claim, you cannot.
This "sixth sense" mystics speak of is merely self-delusion. There is no physical basis for it.
If I tell you that there is a gigantic statue of Paris Hilton on the top of Mt. Everest, the only way to "Prove it's not true" is to take a look for yourself. It is no different with mysticism. Did you just make-up the "Magical Space Unicorns" story, or did you try following the path described by one of the great mystics? Does your experience conform with what has been reported before? If the vast majority of past mystics saw no "Magical Space Unicorns," and further, by following their teachings, I see no "Magical Space Unicorns" myself, then I will conclude that your are a liar and a fraud or a joker.
This "sixth sense" mystics speak of is merely self-delusion. There is no physical basis for it.
Your argument boils down to this: I have never seen (or at least comprehended) evidence of existence other than the physical. Therefore, only the physical exists. It is not only an illogical argument, but it is also anti-empirical.
No, that's exactly what empiricism is: believing only in what is seen/heard/felt.
Does your experience conform with what has been reported before?
Confirmation of a similar emotional or intellectual experience isn't enough for empiricism; that could merely be shared delusion. Physicality is necessary for empirical proof.
Confirmation of a similar emotional or intellectual experience isn't enough for empiricism; that could merely be shared delusion. Physicality is necessary for empirical proof.
"Physicality" is no proof it's not a "shared delusion," since all of the senses report ultimately to the mind. As with any sort of observation, it is repeated confirmation of a phenomenon that yields statistical confidence. But your objections to the possiblity of mysticism are nothing new or original. Al-Ghazali, in his intellectual autobiography Deliverance from Error, dealt with similar arguments a little over 900 years ago:
Man arrives at this knowledge by the aid of his perceptions; each of his senses is given him that he may comprehend the world of created things, and by the term "world" we understand the different species of creatures. The first sense revealed to man is touch, by means of which he perceives a certain group of qualities---heat, cold, moist, dry. The sense of touch does not perceive colors and forms, which are for it as though they did not exist. Next comes the sense of sight, which makes him acquainted with colors and forms; that is to say, with that which occupies the highest rank in the world of sensation. The sense of hearing succeeds, and then the senses of smell and taste.
When the human being can elevate himself above the world of sense, toward the age of seven, he receives the faculty of discrimination; he enters then upon a new phase of existence and can experience, thanks to this faculty, impressions, superior to those of the senses, which do not occur in the sphere of sensation.
He then passes to another phase and receives reason, by which he discerns things necessary, possible, and impossible; in a word, all the notions which he could not combine in the former stages of his existence. But beyond reason and at a higher level by a new faculty of vision is bestowed upon him, by which he perceives invisible things, the secrets of the future and other concepts as inaccessible to reason as the concepts of reason are inaccessible to mere discrimination and what is perceived by discrimination to the senses. Just as the man possessed only of discrimination rejects and denies the notions acquired by reason, so do certain rationalists reject and deny the notion of inspiration. It is a proof of their profound ignorance; for, instead of argument, they merely deny inspiration as a sphere unknown and possessing no real existence. In the same way, a man blind from birth, who knows neither by experience nor by information what colors and forms are, neither knows nor understands them when some one speaks of them to him for the first time.
God, wishing to render intelligible to men the idea of inspiration, has given them a kind of glimpse of it in sleep. In fact, man perceives while asleep the things of the invisible world either clearly manifest or under the veil of allegory to be subsequently lifted by divination. If, however, one was to say to a person who had never himself experienced these dreams that, in a state of lethargy resembling death and during the complete suspension of sight, hearing, and all the senses, a man can see the things of the invisible world, this person would exclaim, and seek to prove the impossibility of these visions by some such argument as the following: "The sensitive faculties are the causes of perception. Now, if one can perceive certain things when one is in full possession of these faculties, how much more is their perception impossible when these faculties are suspended."
The falsity of such an argument is shown by evidence and experience. For in the same way as reason constitutes a particular phase of existence in which intellectual concepts are perceived which are hidden from the senses, similarly, inspiration is a special state in which the inner eye discovers, revealed by a celestial light, mysteries out of the reach of reason. The doubts which are raised regarding inspiration relate (1) to its possibility, (2) to its real and actual existence, (3) to its manifestation in this or that person.
"Physicality" is no proof it's not a "shared delusion," since all of the senses report ultimately to the mind.
Sure, we can't be 100% positive Mount Everest itself isn't merely a shared delusion. Fortunately, through the aid of science, we have proxy senses like radar and seismology. None of these have ever recorded evidence for mystical claims of a sixth sense (if they did, the claims would cease to be mystical and become empirical).
Of course those could all be delusions too. But whether we must accept any perceived reality is a separate question from whether we must accept proof from "senses" that have no physical manifestation outside the mind.
And of course 900 years ago we didn't know much about neurobiology.
inspiration is a special state in which the inner eye discovers, revealed by a celestial light, mysteries out of the reach of reason.
And there again you pass out of the realm of the empirical.
Sure, Aquinas argued that "in order to see God, there must be some similitude of God on the part of the visual faculty, whereby the intellect is made capable of seeing God." Meaning all knowledge must have some basis in the senses. On the other hand, he asserted that:
We have a more perfect knowledge of God by grace than by natural reason. Which is proved thus. The knowledge which we have by natural reason contains two things: images derived from the sensible objects; and the natural intelligible light, enabling us to abstract from them intelligible conceptions.
Now in both of these, human knowledge is assisted by the revelation of grace. For the intellect's natural light is strengthened by the infusion of gratuitous light; and sometimes also the images in the human imagination are divinely formed, so as to express divine things better than those do which we receive from sensible objects, as appears in prophetic visions; while sometimes sensible things, or even voices, are divinely formed to express some divine meaning; as in the Baptism, the Holy Ghost was seen in the shape of a dove, and the voice of the Father was heard, "This is My beloved Son" (Matthew 3:17). (from the Summa Theologica)
By the way, here is probably the most beautiful description of a mystic experience I have come across:
One Darkest Night
One darkest night I went,
aflame with love’s devouring eager burning-
O fortunate event!-
no witnesses discerning,
the house now still from which my steps were turning.
Hidden by darkness, bent
on flight, disguised, down secret steps sojourning-
O fortunate event!-
Hidden by dark, and yearning,
the house now still from which my steps were turning;
In that most blissful night,
in secrecy, since none had seen my going,
nor did I pause for sight,
nor had I light, for showing
the route, but that which in my heart was glowing.
This only did the guiding,
surer than the blaze when noonday shone,
to where he was abiding-
who was to me well known-
where we would be together and alone.
O night that led me true,
O night more fair than morning’s earliest shining,
O night that wrought from two-
lover, beloved entwining-
beloved and lover one in their combining!
On my new-flowered breast,
to him alone and wholly sanctified,
he leaned and lay at rest;
his pleasure was my guide,
and cedars to the wind their scent supplied.
Down from the tower, breezes
came, while soft fingers winnowed through his hair;
a touch that wounds and pleases
caressed my throat with air,
leaving every sense suspended there.
I stayed, all else forgetting,
inclined toward the beloved, face to face;
all motion halted, letting
care vanish with no trace,
forgotten in the lilies of that place.
St. John of the Cross, translated by Rhina P. Espaillat (published here)
(The meaning of these verses are explained in a longer prose work by St. John of the Cross I linked in a post above.)
Dave, to me your reasoning is much like that of a blind man trying to disprove the existence of light by saying, but I can't hear it!
But I can see it. In order for your analogy to make sense, it has to reference something outside the physical realm. And that
would make it mysticism again.
To me, your reasoning is like that suggesting I should believe in Magical Space Unicorns.
You really can't get around empiricism. This is the basis on which we've built Western Civ. Mysticism doomed mankind to millenia of believing in nonphysical causalities rather than determining natural laws and exploiting them in useful ways. Mysticism has been a terrible curse.
It's a very pretty poem, and a very seductive idea.
The final chapter of my book, which gave Flynn the most trouble, is devoted to the subject of meditation. Meditation, in the sense that I use the term, is nothing more than a method of paying extraordinarily close attention to one’s moment-to-moment experience of the world. There is nothing irrational about doing this (and Flynn admits as much). In fact, such a practice constitutes the only rational basis for making detailed (first-person) claims about the nature of human subjectivity. Difficulties arise for secularists like Flynn, however, once we begin speaking about the kinds of experiences that diligent practitioners of meditation are apt to have. It is an empirical fact that sustained meditation can result in a variety of insights that intelligent people regularly find intellectually credible and personally transformative. The problem, however, is that these insights are almost always sought and expressed in a religious context. One such insight is that the feeling we call “I”—the sense that there is a thinker giving rise to our thoughts, an experiencer distinct from the mere flow of experience—can disappear when looked for in a rigorous way. Our conventional sense of “self” is, in fact, nothing more than a cognitive illusion, and dispelling this illusion opens the mind to extraordinary experiences of happiness. This is not a proposition to be accepted on faith; it is an empirical observation, analogous to the discovery of one’s optic blind spots. Most people never notice their blind spots (caused by the transit of the optic nerve through the retina of each eye), but they can be pointed out with a little effort. The absence of a reified self can also be pointed out, though this tends to require considerably more training on the part of both teacher and student. The only “faith” required to get such a project off the ground is the faith of scientific hypothesis. The hypothesis is this: if I use my attention in the prescribed way, it may have a specific, reproducible effect. Needless to say, what happens (or fails to happen) along any path of “spiritual” practice has to be interpreted in light of some conceptual scheme, and everything must remain open to rational discussion. How this discussion proceeds will ultimately be decided by contemplative scientists. As I said in my book, if we ever develop a mature science of the mind, most of our religious texts will be no more useful to mystics than they now are to astronomers.
Now, Harris is promoting a purely empirical foundation for religion -- he thinks that anything that one cannot verify should be tossed. Now, while I think there is something to be said for such a scientific approach, I think that method can sometimes (still) throw out the baby with the bath water. Our religious traditions arose over many years. In a sense they contain the wisdom of the ages, the results of many many generations of trial and error. Further, these traditions are aggregates of many diverse bits of knowledge, originally held separately by varied minds. So, while many ideas, ethical, spiritual, ritual, etc., expressed through religion are grounded in human experience, they cannot be tested in a laboratory like a physicist's hypotheses, nor indeed, perhaps, fully comprehended by any single person. This approach to religion and other sorts of traditional knowledge was developed most fully by the Austrian economist Hayek. On the danger of rejecting such knowledge, he wrote:
It may indeed prove to be the most difficult and not the least important task for human reason rationally to comprehend its own limitations. It is essential for the growth of reason that as individuals we should bow to forces and obey principles which we cannot hope fully to understand, yet on which the advance, even the preservation of civilization depends. Historically this has been achieved by the influence of the various religious creeds and by traditions and superstitions which made men submit to those forces by an appeal to his emotions rather than to his reason. The most dangerous stage in the growth of civilization may well be that in which man has come to regard all these beliefs as superstitions and refuses to accept or submit to anything which he does not rationally understand. The rationalist whose reason is not sufficient to teach him those limitations of the powers of conscious reason, and who despises all the institutions and customs which have not been consciously designed, would thus become the destroyer of the civilization built upon them. This may well prove to be a hurdle which man will repeatedly reach, only to be thrown back into barbarism. - from The Counter Revolution of Science: Studies on the Abuse of Reason
I think this view is also justified by the shift, within empirical philosophy, away from the narrow viewpoint of logical positivism, as developed especially by Quine in the essay I linked above.
Mysticism doomed mankind to millenia of believing in nonphysical causalities rather than determining natural laws and exploiting them in useful ways. I think you have magic/astrology and mysticism confused
Well, let's say you're an early human. Disease, drought, fire, summer heat, winter cold, all these things affect you. You'd like to have some way to control or predict them. Nearly every society viewed certain phenomenon as mystical, or not subject to understanding based on physical observation or bound by physical law.
That was the peculiar genius of the Greeks: when plague struck Athens during the Pelopennesian War, many said it wasn't angry gods but a physical phenomenon, and began searching for a physical cause. They did not have the tools like microscopes to discover bacteria and germs, but they alone among civilizations around at that time had the mindset to immediately grasp the principle.
And their intellectual descendants took that peculiar mindset and created the awesome wonder that is Western Civ.
Now, Harris is promoting a purely empirical foundation for religion -- he thinks that anything that one cannot verify should be tossed. Now, while I think there is something to be said for such a scientific approach
Me too.
Our religious traditions arose over many years. In a sense they contain the wisdom of the ages, the results of many many generations of trial and error.
Ok, but keep in mind most societies have ended up with very irrational conclusions about the world -- some of them horrifyingly so, like the Aztecs (watch Apocalypto sometimes, if you haven't). Trial and error only works if the people doing the trials are intellectually honest about the conclusions.
So, while many ideas, ethical, spiritual, ritual, etc., expressed through religion are grounded in human experience, they cannot be tested in a laboratory like a physicist's hypotheses
I agree. The success of Christianity in the real world could not have been tested in a lab, nor could the idea of liberal democracy it gave birth to when combined with Western ideals of liberty and democracy.
The most dangerous stage in the growth of civilization may well be that in which man has come to regard all these beliefs as superstitions and refuses to accept or submit to anything which he does not rationally understand.
That would only be a danger if the institutions that credibly passed on knowledge collapsed. The trend has been in the opposite direction: today, you can Google about anything or look it up Wikipedia, with a fair degree of trust that certain sites will be reliable.
To elaborate on my earlier point about early hman societies:
All these early societies had some understanding of empiricism; they had to, in order to survive. You stab an animal, it dies and you can eat it. You plant seeds, they grow food. You breed your biggest pigs, you get bigger piglets. These are repeatable and testable.
The problem is entire classes of phenomenae were deemed not subject to such laws. It's mostly a problem of how our brains are wired; applying empirical thinking to everything is hard for us. The Accidental Mind has a couple great chapters on why this is so.
6.16.2007 4:25pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
But the Berlin Wall did fall, albeit only after an age of pain and suffering. So there is always hope.
If it is, as I believe, human nature to seek freedom and, consequently, truth, then however people may be abused, they will continue to do so. If the search for freedom is not human nature, then we'd best guard it very jealously, for what we've got is something rare, indeed.
We can see that the universe is set up in a way that encourages freedom; this is why liberal democracy succeeds and oppression fails. The fact that oppression is common anyway speaks to the nature of Man.
Was it oppression by Adam to break that rule?
For that matter, Dave, I reject the proposed dichotomy between freedom and oppression. My children are not free to do with they want, but they are hardly oppressed, for example.
A man who is free of all responsibility is slave to no-one but himself. And yet what a tyrannical master is liberty unchecked by any other master but himself.
I suspect that to be truly free a man must really never be free of the truth. Otherwise a man is eternally bound by the error of himself.
And what kind of liberty is that?
However, I think we can definitively say from our expirience with the internet that porn is found when men are free to pursue it.
Adam was a fable told by Man. It is Man's nature to abuse God's word to oppress his brethren.
My children are not free to do with they want, but they are hardly oppressed, for example.
Minors lack capacity. But you are free to raise your children as you like. You can teach them that Bush is a jerk if you like, without worry of being beaten, imprisoned, or killed.
In the days of the Founders, the same was true of pamphleteers.
Freedom only allows us to find truth. It does not guarantee we will.
As an empiricist, I can only say that I observe a universe in which free societies prosper and oppressive ones do not. From this I conclude the creator of such a universe favors liberty.
The question of free societies prospering is an interesting one. I am inclined to agree, but I don't think we have a whole lot of empirical evidence their.
Certainly societies that we consider 'unfree' have prospered for a longer time then any of our current ones. At the moment of course it appears that what we call the free societies are being more successful then others, but whether this is a temporary situation or a permanent one we don't have much proof of.
There have of course been numerous historical examples of a less free people prospering more then freer people they had conflicts with, so it doesn't seem to be a law of nature that freedom and prosperity are perfectly linked.
They never reached a level of prosperity and security remotely comparable to what liberal democracies have achieved.
There have of course been numerous historical examples of a less free people prospering more then freer people
There really aren't many. The free Greeks remained secure against far more powerful enemies, and their philosophical descendants the Romans were the world's greatest empire. Of course, neither of them had anything like the freedom or prosperity we do today, they were just freer than other societies around at the time. Notions of free speech are very rare historically.
Well, if you're willing to ignore evolution, assume that every other creation myth was inaccurate but this one isn't, and that Man is capable of accurately and unselfishly passing on holy words even if they did somehow come into possession of them, then I suppose you can accept the Bible as literal truth. But that's a lot to take on faith.
Again, I'm an empiricist. I take very little on faith.
People are often shocked when I tell them my basis for Christian faith is mostly empirical: Christianity works. But I generally don't hold with assertions of received wisdom. The parts of the Bible that interest me are primarily in red, and noteworthy more for their practical effect than their divine attribution.
In other words, you pick and choose which parts of 'God's word' you want to agree with.
I haven't any problem with that, myself, but certainly you can see the absurdity of your statement?
What I'm asserting is merely that "God's word" is a thing unto itself. To me, it doesn't matter if that makes God the biggest comedian or the biggest liar, or even if God's word is accurate - when I'm examining your claim. You have criteria for your choices. Whoopdedoo.
All I'm pointing out is that you're playing the Puritan when by admission you're quite the opposite.
Yes, and you're a man, right? So far you've proved it.Oh, really? And what are you up to then? Merely looking out for the common weal, eh?
Don't you see? It's absurd on its face. Nothing to do with scientific accuracy, etc. as the idea to look for such confirmation within Theology would strike me as just as funny.
Not really. For instance, among Jews there are several schools of thought which hold Man corrupted the holy word to some extent ot another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Judaism
Orthodox (characterized by Eliezer Berkovitz and Norman Lamm): "Verbal Revelation: The Torah, including both the Written and Oral Traditions, consists of the exact words of God. He gave it all as one piece at Sinai."
Conservative I (characterized by Isaac Lesser, Alexander Kohut, Abraham Joshua Heschel, and David Novak): "Continuous Revelation:God dictated His will at Sinai and other times. It was written down by human beings, however, and hence the diverse traditions in the Bible."
Conservative II (characterized by Ben Zion Bokser, Robert Gordis, Max Routtenberg and Emil Fackenheim): "Continuous Revelation: Human beings wrote the Torah, but they were divinely inspired."
Conservative III (characterized by Louis Jacobs, Seymour Seigel, Jacob Agus, David Lieber and Elliot Dorff): "Continuous Revelation: The Torah is the human record of the concounter between God and the People Israel at Sinai. Since it was written by human beings, it contains some laws and ideas which we find repugnant today."
Conservative IV/Reconstructionist (characterized by Mordecai Kaplan, Ira Eisenstein and Harold Schulweis): "No Revelation: Human beings wrote the Torah. No claim for divinity of the product."
Reform (characterized by the Movement's 1937 Guiding Principles): "Progressive revelation: The Torah is God's will written by human beings. As time goes on, we get to understand his will better and better (="progressive revelation").
Merely looking out for the common weal, eh?
I am but a humble seeker of truth. I claim no special love of fellow men, but I'm certainly not using allegations of Holy Word to claim dominion over other men, as has been common human practice forever.
Nothing to do with scientific accuracy, etc. as the idea to look for such confirmation within Theology would strike me as just as funny.
Then that is your folly, and your loss. I find mysticism primarily a deliberate exercise in futility.
Feel free to start pursuing truth any time.
"Tell the truth sucka, for the truth will make you free, that's jive."
To which Fred Sanford said,
"That's right, don't tell no lie cuz a lie will find you dead, that's Fred."
No, you obviously don't. Your statement was logically insupportable but you're too prideful to admit it. At least I hope its only pride.
And I consider mysticism to be the empirical side of religion.
It's not logically insupportable. I gave logic to support it. You're the one eschewing logic in favor of stamping the entire Bible "Made By God" in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.
And I consider mysticism to be the empirical side of religion
Mysticism by definition cannot be the empirical side of anything.
empiricism:The proposition that the only source of true knowledge is experience. Search for knowledge through experiment and observation. Denial that knowledge can be obtained a priori.
Care to explain this statement? Mysticism is the direct human experience of God, while empiricism is an epistemological doctrine that all knowledge is based in human experience. If there is to be empirical knowledge of God, the only way to such would seem to be mysticism.
See for instance, The Dark Night of the Soul, by St. John of the Cross, or The Wonders of the Heart, by Abu Hamid al-Ghazali.
Roger Bacon, one of the first proponents of experimental science in Western Europe, had this to say on experiential knowledge (from his Opus Majus):
Empiricism is essentially the opposite of mysticism.
Mysticism is the direct human experience of God
Only in the sense that anything is "experience." The key difference is "without the medium of the senses or reason."
And thus they passed from empiricism to mysticism.
Mysticism bores me, because it essentially allows one to postulate anything and prove nothing.
Rejecting the existence of a non-sensable phenomenon isn't a priori knowledge, it's the essence of empiricism.
For instance, prove to me that we are not surrounded by invisible Magical Space Unicorns. How do you know they aren't there? Have you tried to experience them? I could assert I know they are there, although they cannot be sensed, and the assertion can't be disproved. That's why I don't like mysticism.
You can state this as many times as you want, but it doesn't constitute a proof.
Yes and no -- mystics generally state they experience God through an inner, or sixth, sense. As I said before, there is no reason to reject such claims a priori.
Further, I think we must distinguish between the general category of empiricism and a specific variant of that doctrine, logical positivism. The latter doctrine was pretty conclusively dethroned by W.V.O. Quine in his seminal essay "Two Dogmas of Empiricism."
But again, mysticism is based on a sense, just not on the five you are used to. Both al-Ghazali and St. John of the Cross went to lengths explaining why most peoples' hearts, which they said are windows on the world of the divine, have been sullied, and proposed exact methodologies to clean these windows and thus to develop this sense. Rejecting their theories a priori has little to do with empiricism; it is perhaps based on a prejudice rooted in common sense, but it does not quite meet the exacting standards of science.
There's no physical evidence for such a sixth sense. Again, it's not a priori to reject something for which there's no physical evidence; empiricism demands you provide some physical evidence.
Mysticism does not. My sixth sense tells me we're surrounded by Magical Space Unicorns. Prove it's not true.
This "sixth sense" mystics speak of is merely self-delusion. There is no physical basis for it.
Your argument boils down to this: I have never seen (or at least comprehended) evidence of existence other than the physical. Therefore, only the physical exists. It is not only an illogical argument, but it is also anti-empirical.
Does your experience conform with what has been reported before?
Confirmation of a similar emotional or intellectual experience isn't enough for empiricism; that could merely be shared delusion. Physicality is necessary for empirical proof.
"Physicality" is no proof it's not a "shared delusion," since all of the senses report ultimately to the mind. As with any sort of observation, it is repeated confirmation of a phenomenon that yields statistical confidence. But your objections to the possiblity of mysticism are nothing new or original. Al-Ghazali, in his intellectual autobiography Deliverance from Error, dealt with similar arguments a little over 900 years ago:
Sure, we can't be 100% positive Mount Everest itself isn't merely a shared delusion. Fortunately, through the aid of science, we have proxy senses like radar and seismology. None of these have ever recorded evidence for mystical claims of a sixth sense (if they did, the claims would cease to be mystical and become empirical).
Of course those could all be delusions too. But whether we must accept any perceived reality is a separate question from whether we must accept proof from "senses" that have no physical manifestation outside the mind.
And of course 900 years ago we didn't know much about neurobiology.
inspiration is a special state in which the inner eye discovers, revealed by a celestial light, mysteries out of the reach of reason.
And there again you pass out of the realm of the empirical.
One Darkest Night
One darkest night I went,
aflame with love’s devouring eager burning-
O fortunate event!-
no witnesses discerning,
the house now still from which my steps were turning.
Hidden by darkness, bent
on flight, disguised, down secret steps sojourning-
O fortunate event!-
Hidden by dark, and yearning,
the house now still from which my steps were turning;
In that most blissful night,
in secrecy, since none had seen my going,
nor did I pause for sight,
nor had I light, for showing
the route, but that which in my heart was glowing.
This only did the guiding,
surer than the blaze when noonday shone,
to where he was abiding-
who was to me well known-
where we would be together and alone.
O night that led me true,
O night more fair than morning’s earliest shining,
O night that wrought from two-
lover, beloved entwining-
beloved and lover one in their combining!
On my new-flowered breast,
to him alone and wholly sanctified,
he leaned and lay at rest;
his pleasure was my guide,
and cedars to the wind their scent supplied.
Down from the tower, breezes
came, while soft fingers winnowed through his hair;
a touch that wounds and pleases
caressed my throat with air,
leaving every sense suspended there.
I stayed, all else forgetting,
inclined toward the beloved, face to face;
all motion halted, letting
care vanish with no trace,
forgotten in the lilies of that place.
St. John of the Cross, translated by Rhina P. Espaillat (published here)
(The meaning of these verses are explained in a longer prose work by St. John of the Cross I linked in a post above.)
But I can see it. In order for your analogy to make sense, it has to reference something outside the physical realm. And that
would make it mysticism again.
To me, your reasoning is like that suggesting I should believe in Magical Space Unicorns.
You really can't get around empiricism. This is the basis on which we've built Western Civ. Mysticism doomed mankind to millenia of believing in nonphysical causalities rather than determining natural laws and exploiting them in useful ways. Mysticism has been a terrible curse.
It's a very pretty poem, and a very seductive idea.
I don't try to "get around" it. I'm an empiricist. In fact, I'm particular kind of one - an economist.
I think you have magic/astrology and mysticism confused.
Now, Harris is promoting a purely empirical foundation for religion -- he thinks that anything that one cannot verify should be tossed. Now, while I think there is something to be said for such a scientific approach, I think that method can sometimes (still) throw out the baby with the bath water. Our religious traditions arose over many years. In a sense they contain the wisdom of the ages, the results of many many generations of trial and error. Further, these traditions are aggregates of many diverse bits of knowledge, originally held separately by varied minds. So, while many ideas, ethical, spiritual, ritual, etc., expressed through religion are grounded in human experience, they cannot be tested in a laboratory like a physicist's hypotheses, nor indeed, perhaps, fully comprehended by any single person. This approach to religion and other sorts of traditional knowledge was developed most fully by the Austrian economist Hayek. On the danger of rejecting such knowledge, he wrote:
I think this view is also justified by the shift, within empirical philosophy, away from the narrow viewpoint of logical positivism, as developed especially by Quine in the essay I linked above.
Well, let's say you're an early human. Disease, drought, fire, summer heat, winter cold, all these things affect you. You'd like to have some way to control or predict them. Nearly every society viewed certain phenomenon as mystical, or not subject to understanding based on physical observation or bound by physical law.
That was the peculiar genius of the Greeks: when plague struck Athens during the Pelopennesian War, many said it wasn't angry gods but a physical phenomenon, and began searching for a physical cause. They did not have the tools like microscopes to discover bacteria and germs, but they alone among civilizations around at that time had the mindset to immediately grasp the principle.
And their intellectual descendants took that peculiar mindset and created the awesome wonder that is Western Civ.
Me too.
Our religious traditions arose over many years. In a sense they contain the wisdom of the ages, the results of many many generations of trial and error.
Ok, but keep in mind most societies have ended up with very irrational conclusions about the world -- some of them horrifyingly so, like the Aztecs (watch Apocalypto sometimes, if you haven't). Trial and error only works if the people doing the trials are intellectually honest about the conclusions.
So, while many ideas, ethical, spiritual, ritual, etc., expressed through religion are grounded in human experience, they cannot be tested in a laboratory like a physicist's hypotheses
I agree. The success of Christianity in the real world could not have been tested in a lab, nor could the idea of liberal democracy it gave birth to when combined with Western ideals of liberty and democracy.
The most dangerous stage in the growth of civilization may well be that in which man has come to regard all these beliefs as superstitions and refuses to accept or submit to anything which he does not rationally understand.
That would only be a danger if the institutions that credibly passed on knowledge collapsed. The trend has been in the opposite direction: today, you can Google about anything or look it up Wikipedia, with a fair degree of trust that certain sites will be reliable.
All these early societies had some understanding of empiricism; they had to, in order to survive. You stab an animal, it dies and you can eat it. You plant seeds, they grow food. You breed your biggest pigs, you get bigger piglets. These are repeatable and testable.
The problem is entire classes of phenomenae were deemed not subject to such laws. It's mostly a problem of how our brains are wired; applying empirical thinking to everything is hard for us. The Accidental Mind has a couple great chapters on why this is so.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.