Look, Dean, this is your place. You set the rules, you declare what is a topic of conversation, and what is not.
I comment when and where I feel like, on those subjects I care about. But the first rule of a guest is not to abuse the host. If the guest does not like the subject or the tone the guest may comment - politely - to the host about that. And then take a dignified exit. I consider this place, like all that 'Mikey NTH' visits and coments on, to be the proprietror's home and salon/parlour. I enjoy visiting; I enjoy the back-and-forth, and I emjoy the odd nugget of praise from a fellow guest.
Why? Because I know the quality of the guests and I appreciate what they add. If the guest can't add but merely attacks all in sight, then that guest is merely a poser, too filled with his or her own narcissim to be worth hearing.
The rules vary from site-to-site, but it is always the host's perogative to lay down the law to the guests. Otherwise you have anarchy and a mere shout-athon. I would go elsewhere if that happened here. For an example, se 'Balloon-Juice'. Why bother seeing the posts when the commenters are so dreadful?
Being civilized implies that uncivil behavior will not be tolerated. Speech is free - and so is response. And sometimes the respose is to push someone beyond the pale*. Such is the cost, and prinicples should never be used to argue that principle's own destruction.
So sayeth Mike (Mikey NTH).
*The pickets on a fence are palings; to beyond the pale is to be outside the walls; to be beyond the protection of civilization - you're an outlaw on your own, dummy.
I have looked in vain for other forums such as DW.
The commenter community of all blogs that I know of is monolithic regarding the basic premises on which are built the notions that bring the individual commentators to the particular blog.
I used to think that there was something bad about that;I had thought that Deans World was the paradigm for what is a good online community.
The following experience changed my mind.
I had been looking for a long time for a left of center blog that wouldn't make my stomach churn. I found,recently, a Jewish progressive forum called jspot.org .I disagree with most of what I read there,but because the discourse is respectful, and because I love Jews, I read the site daily.The community is unanimous on the premises underlying progressive issues,and those premises are therefore never addressed.A former union employee
posted something about a new legislation regarding
unions,I said to my self"self,wouldn't it be nice to "discuss" whether or not there is such a thing as a "fair wage" or "employee rights" or whether or not all wage legislation is simply means of forcing the employer to give charity to his employee?.But,alas, I can't, they would just ignore me.Just think about it,What if I just hung around their site,picking out and picking off their premises one by one,deftly "proving" and "disproving" until they could no longer voice of their views while still laying claim to a respect for logical inquiry.Wow!And what if one by one each and every member of that community
just picked up his ball and went home.Great!And Jpost would be no more.Mighty conquerer you are!Is that what you wan't,Self?"
I came to thinking about the time and place for the discussion of premises.And i realized that though challenging ones basic premises is necessary it is not for all times and places.
You can't discuss the depths of an idea while you are at the same time defending it's most basic premises.Accordingly,you cannot discuss the depths of an idea with a person to whom you still have to defend it's most basic premises.First Basics, then Depth.
Deans world is a place where premises are fair game ,therein is one of it's greatest qualities.But that quality itself make Deans World ill suited for other types of discussion.There is a trade off.
But even Deans world has its own notions that it takes for granted.Which notions are held and the degree to which they are held is in constant flux ,some changes are obvious(fear of Islam)most others much less so.Those who do not adhere to the notions may well be be made to feel alienated,but not necessarily intentionally.Like any other forum,Deans world does not and cannot exist in a notional anarchy. No one should expect as much.There is no such place where every idea will get a fair hearing(This reality has nothing to do with the "rules" of the forum,a couple of well placed snarks or even a F**k you can "ban" an
idea from a forum.If you are not happy here,keep looking.
I moderate the comments at my blog with a heavy hand and no apologies. It's an absurd idea that I live in an echo chamber, even if I didn't read blogs where both sides are presented with ferocity. After all, a large proportion of the social mores in the entertainment industry, most of the news networks, most of the dead-tree newspapers I can buy at the store, and every single news magazine is run by people so far removed from my opinion that the sense of being smothered is more than just a metaphor.
I welcome comments. And they don't have to agree with me. But when a commenter calls me a liar, or persists in trying to get in my face about how wrong I am, I feel no remorse in hitting the delete button. As it is, you've achieved your purpose: I've heard your complaint.
But my website is MY chance to speak MY opinion. If you can't keep your intolerance from boiling over before you click "Post", I don't have any responsibility to foster your bastard opinion.
And you know what's the best part? I almost never moderate people when they use the TypeKey login. And I've never deleted a trackback. When you force me to "Approve" something, I feel obligated not to give myself an ulcer by clicking the button. If you don't want to get censored, it's easy not to be: login through TypeKey, or much better yet, start your own damn website and link your screed to my post.
There are rules here? I've been abused some many times (mostly due to my own making) on DW that I lost count in 2003. I appreciate the diversity of the contributors to DW and have found very few completely lost morons (from either side of the spectrum). It's certainly the best blog I've ever read even though I rarely agree with Dean on Bush and the Iraq war.
Hey, if I've never been banned, this has to be an open site.
Considering the "quality" of the majority of commenters Dean has banned (you can view the madhouse elsewhere), I'm 100% in support of Dean. I have my disagreements, and have cut way back on commenting, but I still check daily to see what's going on at Dean's World.
Dean, if you're not getting rich here, you should get a job reading web sites. After all, that's how Jacob Karsemeyer is getting independently wealthy!
When Jamaal gets his own blog...if ever, he will ban only the intelligent contributors and keep all the trolls. Hmmmmmm....there's a thought...."Troll Paradise." Yeah, that's the ticket.
Seriously, though, I make an attempt not to be deliberately offensive, nor to "pile on". I may be guilty of snark, but rudeness rarely advances the discussion.
Besides, the first one to lose his temper is usually the loser, unless he's remarkably eloquent in his rant. I'm not, so it pays to stay cool.
Stop laughing? Never.
You stop laughing you die inside.
Most troll infestations seem to come in bursts from minions sent forth to harry others. I prefer not to bow to such authoritarian lackeys; it would be beneath pitiful to do so.
They can't survive without intelligent commenters to annoy.
That's where I come in.
STOP laughing!!!
You're not annoyable. You're on record saying that online interaction is your stress relief from the real world, so you never take it seriously. You wouldn't be annoyed, you'd have fun with them. Nothing a troll hates worse. Witness our sudden shortage of Jacob Karsemeyers.
(Poor Jacob. Some day some prospective employer is going to Google him; and the number one hit for his name is gonna be Dean's World...)
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
I comment when and where I feel like, on those subjects I care about. But the first rule of a guest is not to abuse the host. If the guest does not like the subject or the tone the guest may comment - politely - to the host about that. And then take a dignified exit. I consider this place, like all that 'Mikey NTH' visits and coments on, to be the proprietror's home and salon/parlour. I enjoy visiting; I enjoy the back-and-forth, and I emjoy the odd nugget of praise from a fellow guest.
Why? Because I know the quality of the guests and I appreciate what they add. If the guest can't add but merely attacks all in sight, then that guest is merely a poser, too filled with his or her own narcissim to be worth hearing.
The rules vary from site-to-site, but it is always the host's perogative to lay down the law to the guests. Otherwise you have anarchy and a mere shout-athon. I would go elsewhere if that happened here. For an example, se 'Balloon-Juice'. Why bother seeing the posts when the commenters are so dreadful?
Being civilized implies that uncivil behavior will not be tolerated. Speech is free - and so is response. And sometimes the respose is to push someone beyond the pale*. Such is the cost, and prinicples should never be used to argue that principle's own destruction.
So sayeth Mike (Mikey NTH).
*The pickets on a fence are palings; to beyond the pale is to be outside the walls; to be beyond the protection of civilization - you're an outlaw on your own, dummy.
I may play the fool from time to time; but I do try not to be a damn fool. :)
Fuck 'em.
Don't look back.
The commenter community of all blogs that I know of is monolithic regarding the basic premises on which are built the notions that bring the individual commentators to the particular blog.
I used to think that there was something bad about that;I had thought that Deans World was the paradigm for what is a good online community.
The following experience changed my mind.
I had been looking for a long time for a left of center blog that wouldn't make my stomach churn. I found,recently, a Jewish progressive forum called jspot.org .I disagree with most of what I read there,but because the discourse is respectful, and because I love Jews, I read the site daily.The community is unanimous on the premises underlying progressive issues,and those premises are therefore never addressed.A former union employee
posted something about a new legislation regarding
unions,I said to my self"self,wouldn't it be nice to "discuss" whether or not there is such a thing as a "fair wage" or "employee rights" or whether or not all wage legislation is simply means of forcing the employer to give charity to his employee?.But,alas, I can't, they would just ignore me.Just think about it,What if I just hung around their site,picking out and picking off their premises one by one,deftly "proving" and "disproving" until they could no longer voice of their views while still laying claim to a respect for logical inquiry.Wow!And what if one by one each and every member of that community
just picked up his ball and went home.Great!And Jpost would be no more.Mighty conquerer you are!Is that what you wan't,Self?"
I came to thinking about the time and place for the discussion of premises.And i realized that though challenging ones basic premises is necessary it is not for all times and places.
You can't discuss the depths of an idea while you are at the same time defending it's most basic premises.Accordingly,you cannot discuss the depths of an idea with a person to whom you still have to defend it's most basic premises.First Basics, then Depth.
Deans world is a place where premises are fair game ,therein is one of it's greatest qualities.But that quality itself make Deans World ill suited for other types of discussion.There is a trade off.
But even Deans world has its own notions that it takes for granted.Which notions are held and the degree to which they are held is in constant flux ,some changes are obvious(fear of Islam)most others much less so.Those who do not adhere to the notions may well be be made to feel alienated,but not necessarily intentionally.Like any other forum,Deans world does not and cannot exist in a notional anarchy. No one should expect as much.There is no such place where every idea will get a fair hearing(This reality has nothing to do with the "rules" of the forum,a couple of well placed snarks or even a F**k you can "ban" an
idea from a forum.If you are not happy here,keep looking.
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here.
You tried to say it in your way.
I tried to distill my view to it's essence in about 4.5 words.
I don't think either of us hit it quite right.
But we're getting closer, which is a good thing!
I welcome comments. And they don't have to agree with me. But when a commenter calls me a liar, or persists in trying to get in my face about how wrong I am, I feel no remorse in hitting the delete button. As it is, you've achieved your purpose: I've heard your complaint.
But my website is MY chance to speak MY opinion. If you can't keep your intolerance from boiling over before you click "Post", I don't have any responsibility to foster your bastard opinion.
And you know what's the best part? I almost never moderate people when they use the TypeKey login. And I've never deleted a trackback. When you force me to "Approve" something, I feel obligated not to give myself an ulcer by clicking the button. If you don't want to get censored, it's easy not to be: login through TypeKey, or much better yet, start your own damn website and link your screed to my post.
Hmmn... Can you tell I was dealing with just such a whiny brat while I was writing this comment?
Hey, if I've never been banned, this has to be an open site.
Keep on blogging brother....never look back.
She also loves messing with people's heads.
Also a specialty. ;-)
Thanks Mary. It works for me, plus my motto is don't feed the trolls, destroy them. Keeps people in line fairly well.
Seriously, though, I make an attempt not to be deliberately offensive, nor to "pile on". I may be guilty of snark, but rudeness rarely advances the discussion.
Besides, the first one to lose his temper is usually the loser, unless he's remarkably eloquent in his rant. I'm not, so it pays to stay cool.
That's where I come in.
STOP laughing!!!
You stop laughing you die inside.
Most troll infestations seem to come in bursts from minions sent forth to harry others. I prefer not to bow to such authoritarian lackeys; it would be beneath pitiful to do so.
You're not annoyable. You're on record saying that online interaction is your stress relief from the real world, so you never take it seriously. You wouldn't be annoyed, you'd have fun with them. Nothing a troll hates worse. Witness our sudden shortage of Jacob Karsemeyers.
(Poor Jacob. Some day some prospective employer is going to Google him; and the number one hit for his name is gonna be Dean's World...)
(OK, it's only number two...)
I couldn't agree more :-)
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.