Al Qaida's goal is not to (yet) take over America. It is to take over the Middle East.
You really dont understand geopolitics and globalization do you?
Halliburton -- ours, good or bad -- is now based in Dubai. Kuwait Investments owns majority shares of Daimler Chrysler. Citigroup does hundreds of billions in business there. Every major NY law firm has opened up in M.E.
Then there is the matter of British interests.
Finally, I'm more than a bit concerned about the Jews in Israel. Aziz has mentioned this before, but if things aren't stabilized, Al-Q will be setting up another jewish holocaust, god forbid.
You're just another one of the "if I close my eyes it'll go away crew." Glad to see it displayed so openly.
I can't speak to Baghdad nearly as much as I can to al-Anbar, but there is hope there. But Baghdad is more worrisome.
In addition, a very important piece by Noah Feldman that validates half the presumptions in your post but not the other half: "the Undeparted."
Be sure to read it, it's good. Feldman talks about a victory for al-Qaeda if America leaves, but then says that's why America won't, even if the D's win in 2008. They'll just minimize and rebrand the presence. (which might not be terrible)
I didn't make Eteraz.Org just for American Muslims to talk among themselves. I made it so that we Americans — all of us — can talk to Muslims all over the world. We Americans have to accept their humanity, and show them ours.
Point 1: Time after time you post here, dripping with contempt for those of us who don't just abjectly accept everything you harangue us about.
Point 2: As bad as you get, you are pretty much the most civil person posting at Eteraz.org. Your commenters tend to be far, far more contemptuous of views that aren't in lockstep with the hate Bush crowd.
Until points 1 and 2 change, don't expect me to ever participate at Eteraz.org. As you have demonstrated eveery single time you've been given the chance, respect is not a two-way street with you, and it's less so with your commenters. Anything I would post there would only be subject to scorn and ridicule, not respect.
I don't tell you this over and over because I have something against you. I tell you this because I applaud your goals and I want you to succeed (that's why I keep reading), but you can't with the tactics and the disrespectful approach you take. You create less discussion, not more.
If you insist on driving the middle out of the debate, then only you and the Islamophobes will be debating. The Islamophobes want to fight with you. I want to talk with you, but you just want to lecture me on how wrong I am. I have better things to do with my time than to volunteer for a lecture about all my faults.
There's where it lies, Ali: your own attitude is a big contributor to the problem. You say you want discussion, but you'll only accept discussion that agrees with you. Thanks, but I'll pass.
And as for this...
We Americans have to accept their humanity...
The middle accepted their humanity a long time ago, so we don't need the lecture.
Those of you working for our defeat by constantly declaring failure and hopelessness and an obsessive, insane hatred of the current occupant of the White House will be the ones responsible if we pull out, Ali.
You will have much to be ashamed of if that happens. You could have worked for success, and to help the people of Iraq. You chose attacks and lies instead. Pathetic.
And by the way, do you have ANY idea how much work I've put into helping the cause that you've been doing so much to revile and destroy?
Or how much work I plan on continuing to do?
If we ever pull out the people directly responsible will be the ones who spread lies and partisan nonsense and who preach defeatism at every turn.
As for the plan that we can convince the people living under those dictatorships that Al Qaeda is the bad guy: I'm happy to listen to your suggestions. Mine is: make sure Iraq stays a democratic society and don't leave until they're stable. What's yours?
Point 2: As bad as you get, you are pretty much the most civil person posting at Eteraz.org. Your commenters tend to be far, far more contemptuous of views that aren't in lockstep with the hate Bush crowd.
I retract a small part of Point 2. Aziz has been known to comment on Eteraz.org, so you're not the most civil person there. Aziz knows how to disagree strongly and yet respectfully, and he doesn't indulge in lecturing. Also, to tie in to Dean's points, I haven't seen him buy into paranoid conspiracy beliefs.
You could do a lot for your cause if you could learn from Aziz.
As for the plan that we can convince the people living under those dictatorships that Al Qaeda is the bad guy: I'm happy to listen to your suggestions. Mine is: make sure Iraq stays a democratic society and don't leave until they're stable. What's yours?
His plan is simple, Dean: dialog. It's clear that Ali's a big believer in the power of dialog. And he has posted occasional news stories to back up that view.
And so his plea: come interact with Muslims at Eteraz.org, so we can learn to know and respect each other. I like that idea. It's just too bad that he's only interested in dialog that agrees with him, and that he's not interested in showing any respect. If he could just see this, he might accomplish something. As it is, he's just creating another echo chamber, and then wondering why we don't want to join his echo. Must be something wrong with us, I guess.
One more point that I'd like to make that I didn't make in my post. A few months ago I put together a little colloquium of people much higher-powered than myself to consider options on Iraq. The participants came from a variety of disciplines, backgrounds, and political positions.
I tried to solicit as many differing ideas on what to do about Iraq as possible. I was unsuccessful. Despite the fact that my participants disagreed on much they all agreed that, awful as the situation is, there was no alternative to keeping a substantial U. S. military presence in Iraq until it's a lot more stable there than it is now that wasn't tremendously worse than staying there.
The question then becomes how does one muster the political will to stay? On that I have no idea. The only hope is that any president sitting in the Oval Office in 2009 arrives at the same conclusion my colloquium participants did.
Educating the American people on the necessity of the mission is what's needed, Dave.
That's why the "The Truth About Iraq" wiki will be going live very soon. It's going to serve as the central repository for answering the bogus nonsense about this conflict that's come to infect so many people.
I do think what Ali is trying to do can also be of value on the other end. But Ali, Martin is right that if you can't respect people who don't share all your cherished beliefs about Bush and the "neocons," you're going to have some challenges.
I'm not sure that message can get through the din, Dean.
Nor am I sure that Americans will listen to any message new, old, or otherwise at this point. Opinion seems to be fixed but divided.
On the one hand there's a sizeable group that considers withdrawal in Iraq a no lose situation: any adverse consequences can be blamed on Bush rather as the spectre of Hoover was raised over the heads of Republicans for 40 years. And if there are no adverse consequences, they can take the credit for being right.
There's another sizeable group that hates losing and, even more, hates losing its young men and women in a cause far away that doesn't look like it has much point.
Both of these groups have little undercurrents of racism. But, judging by the polls, they account for the majority of the American people now.
if you accept that dialog with muslim world is necessary, you'll have to concede to them that the war was, if not a bad idea, ended up in a very bad place. i know a looooooooooooot of muslims. 99.9% want to see hawks concede their failures [99.9% will also concede that removal of saddam was `good; so there's room to operate].
finally, this has nothing to do with me. so attacking whether you like my approach has nothing to do with the matter. ive worked for our executive branch in dc. i dont need convincing. your (and mine) work is in influencing muslims. i was influenced by s lot of good jews n baptists.
attacking me is fun but a complete diversion bc i dont REPRESENT all muslims. im a reformist; i represent ideas that are out there slowly becoming accepted [or which are suppressed].
if you accept that dialog with muslim world is necessary, you'll have to concede to them...
OK, so what demands do I get to make before a dialog begins? Oh, none, I know, because this isn't a dialog: it's a lecture on my faults.
attacking me is fun but a complete diversion bc i dont REPRESENT all muslims. im a reformist; i represent ideas that are out there slowly becoming accepted [or which are suppressed].
I'm not attacking you. I'm telling you that if you keep attacking me, then we won't have the dialog that you think is the key to everything. You can't have a dialog when one side is supposed to just meekly listen about all its faults.
Seriously: why should I join a discussion where all my thoughts are presumptively wrong? Why should I try to form community where I'll get nothing but disrespect, and then be chastised for not being respectful enough?
I have no interest in such an asymmetrical echo chamber. If you want to foster dialog, find a way to fix that problem. Step 1 might be not contributing to the problem yourself. Step 2 might be to actively try to dissuade others from contributing to the problem.
If you can't fix that problem, you won't have a dialog. You just won't.
It hasn't ended up in as bad a place as some people insist it has, but certainly it hasn't been perfect and there have been failures and there have been massive disappointments and there have been embarrassments and there have been screwups.
Now I'd like to see some of the folks on the other side start to admit that there were good and rational reasons for doing what we did and admit the possibility--however slight--that the whole BushNeoConHalliburtonWarForOil narrative is cheap, and that it's not acceptable to lie.
They got tricked by a scheming liar like Chalabi who told them about the street festivals and confetti in their honor.
No, that actually happened in Kurdistan. Shia were generally happy to see us, too. The insurgents remain unpopular.
There was no democratic discourse.
There was endless discourse. Did you not own a TV in 2002?
Because a majority of Americans have accepted that we have lost.
Factual questions are not decided by majority vote. Of course we haven't lost; we control every major city and have stood up a government. It's just violent.
if you accept that dialog with muslim world is necessary, you'll have to concede to them that the war was, if not a bad idea, ended up in a very bad place.
Well, people of every persuasion need to realize that is the fault of terrorists and thugs, not neocons. The doctor is not to blame for the cancer, he is the only thing keeping it from being far worse.
Liberalizing Iraq was never going to be easy. We should just be thankful the price isn't as bloody as in South Korea, Japan, or Germany.
Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it,
I think you're gonna feel
Like you belong,
A nocturnal vacation,
Unnecessary sedation,
You want to feel at home
Cause you belong,
Welcome to my nightmare.
Welcome to my breakdown.
I hope I didn't scare you.
That's just the way we are
When we come down.
We sweat, laugh and scream here,
Cuz life is just a dream here.
You know inside you
Feel right at home, here
Welcome to my breakdown.
Whoa, You're welcome to my nightmare,
Yeah, I think you're gonna like it,
I think you're gonna feel
That you belong,
We sweat, laugh and scream here,
Cuz life is just a dream here.
You know inside you feel
Right at home here,
Welcome to my nightmare.
Welcome to my breakdown. Yeah
Apropos of Elisha, the antiwar plan for Iraqis, via Trent Reznor:
slave screams, he hears but doesn't want to listen
slave screams, he's being beat into submission
don't open your eyes you won't like what you see
the devils of truth steal the souls of the free
don't open your eyes take it from me
i have found
you can find
happiness in slavery
4.29.2007 11:42pm
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
The Middle East gets to deal with this frankenstein they (not Bush) have created, encouraged, fed.
I agree that Bush has made a mess of things, but I do not believe he started the fire. He just bungled the attempt to put it out.
You really dont understand geopolitics and globalization do you?
Halliburton -- ours, good or bad -- is now based in Dubai. Kuwait Investments owns majority shares of Daimler Chrysler. Citigroup does hundreds of billions in business there. Every major NY law firm has opened up in M.E.
Then there is the matter of British interests.
Finally, I'm more than a bit concerned about the Jews in Israel. Aziz has mentioned this before, but if things aren't stabilized, Al-Q will be setting up another jewish holocaust, god forbid.
You're just another one of the "if I close my eyes it'll go away crew." Glad to see it displayed so openly.
Plus, nice example of ad hominem, Ali.
In addition, a very important piece by Noah Feldman that validates half the presumptions in your post but not the other half: "the Undeparted."
Be sure to read it, it's good. Feldman talks about a victory for al-Qaeda if America leaves, but then says that's why America won't, even if the D's win in 2008. They'll just minimize and rebrand the presence. (which might not be terrible)
(Feldman helped write Iraq's constitution, btw)
Point 1: Time after time you post here, dripping with contempt for those of us who don't just abjectly accept everything you harangue us about.
Point 2: As bad as you get, you are pretty much the most civil person posting at Eteraz.org. Your commenters tend to be far, far more contemptuous of views that aren't in lockstep with the hate Bush crowd.
Until points 1 and 2 change, don't expect me to ever participate at Eteraz.org. As you have demonstrated eveery single time you've been given the chance, respect is not a two-way street with you, and it's less so with your commenters. Anything I would post there would only be subject to scorn and ridicule, not respect.
I don't tell you this over and over because I have something against you. I tell you this because I applaud your goals and I want you to succeed (that's why I keep reading), but you can't with the tactics and the disrespectful approach you take. You create less discussion, not more.
If you insist on driving the middle out of the debate, then only you and the Islamophobes will be debating. The Islamophobes want to fight with you. I want to talk with you, but you just want to lecture me on how wrong I am. I have better things to do with my time than to volunteer for a lecture about all my faults.
There's where it lies, Ali: your own attitude is a big contributor to the problem. You say you want discussion, but you'll only accept discussion that agrees with you. Thanks, but I'll pass.
And as for this...
The middle accepted their humanity a long time ago, so we don't need the lecture.
You will have much to be ashamed of if that happens. You could have worked for success, and to help the people of Iraq. You chose attacks and lies instead. Pathetic.
Or how much work I plan on continuing to do?
If we ever pull out the people directly responsible will be the ones who spread lies and partisan nonsense and who preach defeatism at every turn.
As for the plan that we can convince the people living under those dictatorships that Al Qaeda is the bad guy: I'm happy to listen to your suggestions. Mine is: make sure Iraq stays a democratic society and don't leave until they're stable. What's yours?
I retract a small part of Point 2. Aziz has been known to comment on Eteraz.org, so you're not the most civil person there. Aziz knows how to disagree strongly and yet respectfully, and he doesn't indulge in lecturing. Also, to tie in to Dean's points, I haven't seen him buy into paranoid conspiracy beliefs.
You could do a lot for your cause if you could learn from Aziz.
His plan is simple, Dean: dialog. It's clear that Ali's a big believer in the power of dialog. And he has posted occasional news stories to back up that view.
And so his plea: come interact with Muslims at Eteraz.org, so we can learn to know and respect each other. I like that idea. It's just too bad that he's only interested in dialog that agrees with him, and that he's not interested in showing any respect. If he could just see this, he might accomplish something. As it is, he's just creating another echo chamber, and then wondering why we don't want to join his echo. Must be something wrong with us, I guess.
I tried to solicit as many differing ideas on what to do about Iraq as possible. I was unsuccessful. Despite the fact that my participants disagreed on much they all agreed that, awful as the situation is, there was no alternative to keeping a substantial U. S. military presence in Iraq until it's a lot more stable there than it is now that wasn't tremendously worse than staying there.
The question then becomes how does one muster the political will to stay? On that I have no idea. The only hope is that any president sitting in the Oval Office in 2009 arrives at the same conclusion my colloquium participants did.
That's why the "The Truth About Iraq" wiki will be going live very soon. It's going to serve as the central repository for answering the bogus nonsense about this conflict that's come to infect so many people.
I do think what Ali is trying to do can also be of value on the other end. But Ali, Martin is right that if you can't respect people who don't share all your cherished beliefs about Bush and the "neocons," you're going to have some challenges.
Nor am I sure that Americans will listen to any message new, old, or otherwise at this point. Opinion seems to be fixed but divided.
On the one hand there's a sizeable group that considers withdrawal in Iraq a no lose situation: any adverse consequences can be blamed on Bush rather as the spectre of Hoover was raised over the heads of Republicans for 40 years. And if there are no adverse consequences, they can take the credit for being right.
There's another sizeable group that hates losing and, even more, hates losing its young men and women in a cause far away that doesn't look like it has much point.
Both of these groups have little undercurrents of racism. But, judging by the polls, they account for the majority of the American people now.
I'm not sure positions are as fixed as you think they are though.
if you accept that dialog with muslim world is necessary, you'll have to concede to them that the war was, if not a bad idea, ended up in a very bad place. i know a looooooooooooot of muslims. 99.9% want to see hawks concede their failures [99.9% will also concede that removal of saddam was `good; so there's room to operate].
finally, this has nothing to do with me. so attacking whether you like my approach has nothing to do with the matter. ive worked for our executive branch in dc. i dont need convincing. your (and mine) work is in influencing muslims. i was influenced by s lot of good jews n baptists.
attacking me is fun but a complete diversion bc i dont REPRESENT all muslims. im a reformist; i represent ideas that are out there slowly becoming accepted [or which are suppressed].
OK, so what demands do I get to make before a dialog begins? Oh, none, I know, because this isn't a dialog: it's a lecture on my faults.
I'm not attacking you. I'm telling you that if you keep attacking me, then we won't have the dialog that you think is the key to everything. You can't have a dialog when one side is supposed to just meekly listen about all its faults.
Seriously: why should I join a discussion where all my thoughts are presumptively wrong? Why should I try to form community where I'll get nothing but disrespect, and then be chastised for not being respectful enough?
I have no interest in such an asymmetrical echo chamber. If you want to foster dialog, find a way to fix that problem. Step 1 might be not contributing to the problem yourself. Step 2 might be to actively try to dissuade others from contributing to the problem.
If you can't fix that problem, you won't have a dialog. You just won't.
Now I'd like to see some of the folks on the other side start to admit that there were good and rational reasons for doing what we did and admit the possibility--however slight--that the whole BushNeoConHalliburtonWarForOil narrative is cheap, and that it's not acceptable to lie.
No, that actually happened in Kurdistan. Shia were generally happy to see us, too. The insurgents remain unpopular.
There was no democratic discourse.
There was endless discourse. Did you not own a TV in 2002?
Because a majority of Americans have accepted that we have lost.
Factual questions are not decided by majority vote. Of course we haven't lost; we control every major city and have stood up a government. It's just violent.
Never give up, never surrender.
Well, people of every persuasion need to realize that is the fault of terrorists and thugs, not neocons. The doctor is not to blame for the cancer, he is the only thing keeping it from being far worse.
Liberalizing Iraq was never going to be easy. We should just be thankful the price isn't as bloody as in South Korea, Japan, or Germany.
And the American South.
I think you're gonna like it,
I think you're gonna feel
Like you belong,
A nocturnal vacation,
Unnecessary sedation,
You want to feel at home
Cause you belong,
Welcome to my nightmare.
Welcome to my breakdown.
I hope I didn't scare you.
That's just the way we are
When we come down.
We sweat, laugh and scream here,
Cuz life is just a dream here.
You know inside you
Feel right at home, here
Welcome to my breakdown.
Whoa, You're welcome to my nightmare,
Yeah, I think you're gonna like it,
I think you're gonna feel
That you belong,
We sweat, laugh and scream here,
Cuz life is just a dream here.
You know inside you feel
Right at home here,
Welcome to my nightmare.
Welcome to my breakdown. Yeah
slave screams, he hears but doesn't want to listen
slave screams, he's being beat into submission
don't open your eyes you won't like what you see
the devils of truth steal the souls of the free
don't open your eyes take it from me
i have found
you can find
happiness in slavery
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.