The best part is Dan Rather saying "we shouldn't have been fooled in this way" -- no, he's not talking about the fake Guard memos, he's referring to the evil Bush admin's lies about Iraq's WMD programs!
Oh, right. That part about how George Bush and/or Dick Cheney and/or Karl Rove convinced us all that Saddam was behind 9/11. Even though they never said it, or even implied it, and went out of their way to deny it repeatedly whenever asked. We were all just bamboozled sheepul, who could not possibly think for ourselves.
You want to know the biggest lie of the Iraq operation? The biggest lie is: "most Americans believed Saddam was behind 9/11." Not only did the administration never claim this, but, no poll or survey of the American people ever suggested that most Americans believed it at the time.
Lies. It's so fucking disgusting having to debunk the same fucking lies over and over again.
You want to know the biggest lie of the Iraq operation? The biggest lie is: "most Americans believed Saddam was behind 9/11." Not only did the administration never claim this, but, no poll or survey of the American people ever suggested that most Americans believed it at the time.
A number of public-opinion experts agreed that the public automatically blamed Iraq, just as they would have blamed Libya if a similar attack had occurred in the 1980s. There is good evidence for this: On Sept. 13, 2001, a Time/CNN poll found that 78 percent suspected Hussein's involvement -- even though the administration had not made a connection.
All of which really goes to show polling the public on factual questions is stupid. We don't change the Pythagorean theorem based on whether a majority of respondents believe the sum of the aquare of the two legs of a right triangle equals the square of the hypoteneuse.
TallDave has raised the major problem with that poll: the word "involved."
Actually this specific question is to a great degree moot. It's about the same rhetorical level as arguing whether the Bush administration ever said Iraq was an "imminent threat."
And good luck on finding any "false pretenses" Mikey. They don't exist. But, hey, there's nutjobs who still insist FDR knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time, so you'll always have some crazies to hang out with...
Mike: All you have to do is go back to the original survey and look at what it actually said. Which is always good, because the press routinely puts its own nauseating spin on poll results.
What that Pew poll actually asked--and it was the only one I'm aware of by the way, and I've been watching this gigantic whopper that won't die for years now--was whether people thought it was likely that Saddam had "something to do with" 9/11.
And most people at the time, when asked that question, thought it was at least possible that he had something to do with it. Which is and was a perfectly rational thing to think, considering all the times he'd attacked us before (which goes to that other constant lie about how "he never even attacked us" by the way) and his ongoing, very public sponsorship of terrorism elsewhere.
Anyway, that's all that survey ever said.
And this despite repeated denials of any evidence of a link from the administration and from other government leaders.
The entire "Bush fooled us into believing Saddam was behind 9/11" is a sickening fucking lie and has been all along. It's a perfect example of how partisanship destroys people's intellects. Now the running false narrative is "we went to Iraq in revenge for 9/11," which is an even bigger lie.
But if you live in a comfortable lefty bubble surrounded comfortably by the mainstream press and a bunch of obsessive Bush haters, well, I guess this would be all news to you.
The entire "Bush fooled us into believing Saddam was behind 9/11" is a sickening fucking lie and has been all along. It's a perfect example of how partisanship destroys people's intellects. Now the running false narrative is "we went to Iraq in revenge for 9/11," which is an even bigger lie.
Denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt.
The elitist MSM is very contrite that they didn't teach us idiots well. They failed, we just don't believe them. This is not the point they are addressing, however. They think if they had just been better, questioned more, etc, etc we would all have seen things differently. Well, since 9/11 many people do see things differently and it is to the MSM's shame that they don't.
It's a perfect example of how partisanship destroys people's intellects.
This may be a clever rhetorical trick, but in the end it is just a rhetorical trick.
“It has been conclusively shown that Black is White. Only people whose intellect has been destroyed by partisanship still pretend that Black is Black.”
The current administration is very, very good at slogans and rhetorical tricks. In 2003 they told us “Mission Accomplished.” In 2004 “Freedom was on the March.” In 2005 it was "As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." In 2006 they said they had a “Plan for Victory.”
We now know these were all just slogans, and the plan for victory was just a bunch of banners. Slogans and rhetorical tricks do not win wars.
While we are bogged down in Iraq with no end in site, the real organizers of 9/11 are regrouping for new attacks. The slogans and rhetorical tricks are getting old. We need more people actually concerned about protecting the security of our country.
Fabulous dodging of the issues, Mike. Do you ever get dizzy from all that spinning?
The fact--which you can never deny--is that it's a lie to think that most Americans ever believed that Saddam was directly responsible for 9/11. Because no poll or survey has EVER backed this lie. Nor did our government officials ever try to convince of this lie, as even that pathetic Washington Post story you linked (which misreported the survey results) will confirm.
So you can spin and spin and spin all you want: at the end of the day, you're still promulgating a lie.
You want a simple test of the lie? Find me the people who say "I believed Saddam was behind 9/11 and that's why I supported going into Iraq." Get them to sign a petition. Not just one stupid schlub in a hateful lefty "documentary," but actual everyday ordinary Americans who say, "Oh yeah, I supported going into Iraq because I believed Saddam was behind 9/11."
Good luck. You won't find any significant percentage of Americans who will say so, because they never existed.
You're right about denial. You just haven't bothered looking into a mirror.
And there you have it folks. The mental gymnastics that the Iraq war true believers have to do every day to keep their head from exploding.
Simple facts are not facts, because they can make up some new test the facts do not pass and they come through the hopeless prejudice MSM. But most importantly of all, they don’t want to believe them. Facts you don’t want to believe are not facts.
The majority of Americans either were never fooled in the first place or have seen through this fog of misinformation. Sadly, some never will. They will have to find new ways to keep filtering out the tragedy that is unfolding in Iraq.
4.22.2007 5:15am
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
The Editor &Publisher story does not, but perhaps the Moyer’s program it is discussing will.
And, if you don’t already know some of the “false pretenses”, then you have been living in a bubble.
You want to know the biggest lie of the Iraq operation? The biggest lie is: "most Americans believed Saddam was behind 9/11." Not only did the administration never claim this, but, no poll or survey of the American people ever suggested that most Americans believed it at the time.
Lies. It's so fucking disgusting having to debunk the same fucking lies over and over again.
From the September 6, 2003 Washington Post:
Sixty-nine percent of Americans said they thought it at least likely that Hussein was involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, according to the latest Washington Post poll.
A number of public-opinion experts agreed that the public automatically blamed Iraq, just as they would have blamed Libya if a similar attack had occurred in the 1980s. There is good evidence for this: On Sept. 13, 2001, a Time/CNN poll found that 78 percent suspected Hussein's involvement -- even though the administration had not made a connection.
All of which really goes to show polling the public on factual questions is stupid. We don't change the Pythagorean theorem based on whether a majority of respondents believe the sum of the aquare of the two legs of a right triangle equals the square of the hypoteneuse.
Actually this specific question is to a great degree moot. It's about the same rhetorical level as arguing whether the Bush administration ever said Iraq was an "imminent threat."
And good luck on finding any "false pretenses" Mikey. They don't exist. But, hey, there's nutjobs who still insist FDR knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time, so you'll always have some crazies to hang out with...
What that Pew poll actually asked--and it was the only one I'm aware of by the way, and I've been watching this gigantic whopper that won't die for years now--was whether people thought it was likely that Saddam had "something to do with" 9/11.
And most people at the time, when asked that question, thought it was at least possible that he had something to do with it. Which is and was a perfectly rational thing to think, considering all the times he'd attacked us before (which goes to that other constant lie about how "he never even attacked us" by the way) and his ongoing, very public sponsorship of terrorism elsewhere.
Anyway, that's all that survey ever said.
And this despite repeated denials of any evidence of a link from the administration and from other government leaders.
The entire "Bush fooled us into believing Saddam was behind 9/11" is a sickening fucking lie and has been all along. It's a perfect example of how partisanship destroys people's intellects. Now the running false narrative is "we went to Iraq in revenge for 9/11," which is an even bigger lie.
But if you live in a comfortable lefty bubble surrounded comfortably by the mainstream press and a bunch of obsessive Bush haters, well, I guess this would be all news to you.
Denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt.
This may be a clever rhetorical trick, but in the end it is just a rhetorical trick.
“It has been conclusively shown that Black is White. Only people whose intellect has been destroyed by partisanship still pretend that Black is Black.”
The current administration is very, very good at slogans and rhetorical tricks. In 2003 they told us “Mission Accomplished.” In 2004 “Freedom was on the March.” In 2005 it was "As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." In 2006 they said they had a “Plan for Victory.”
We now know these were all just slogans, and the plan for victory was just a bunch of banners. Slogans and rhetorical tricks do not win wars.
While we are bogged down in Iraq with no end in site, the real organizers of 9/11 are regrouping for new attacks. The slogans and rhetorical tricks are getting old. We need more people actually concerned about protecting the security of our country.
The fact--which you can never deny--is that it's a lie to think that most Americans ever believed that Saddam was directly responsible for 9/11. Because no poll or survey has EVER backed this lie. Nor did our government officials ever try to convince of this lie, as even that pathetic Washington Post story you linked (which misreported the survey results) will confirm.
So you can spin and spin and spin all you want: at the end of the day, you're still promulgating a lie.
You want a simple test of the lie? Find me the people who say "I believed Saddam was behind 9/11 and that's why I supported going into Iraq." Get them to sign a petition. Not just one stupid schlub in a hateful lefty "documentary," but actual everyday ordinary Americans who say, "Oh yeah, I supported going into Iraq because I believed Saddam was behind 9/11."
Good luck. You won't find any significant percentage of Americans who will say so, because they never existed.
You're right about denial. You just haven't bothered looking into a mirror.
Simple facts are not facts, because they can make up some new test the facts do not pass and they come through the hopeless prejudice MSM. But most importantly of all, they don’t want to believe them. Facts you don’t want to believe are not facts.
The majority of Americans either were never fooled in the first place or have seen through this fog of misinformation. Sadly, some never will. They will have to find new ways to keep filtering out the tragedy that is unfolding in Iraq.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.