Rome is one of my favorites too. A shame that it ended. Vorenus and Pullo are absolutely wonderful characters, particularly the latter. It takes quite a few liberties with history, it turns out, but it remains one of the best shows I've ever seen.
Vorenus and Pullo are among my favorites too. An interesting sidelight being that they actually existed. They were in Julius Caesar's memoirs. Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo were real people.
The creators of the series took all sorts of artistic liberties with them, of course. Because that's the difference between history and stageplay.
I really like the women in this story too. A lot.
By the way, yes, the Romans really were that obsessed with sex, especially male sexuality. Male sexuality was the ultimate expression of power for them. They were obsessed with the penis. Once again, I am not being provocative to say so--it's just who they were. The typical wealthy Roman home had a carved image of a penis and testes over the front door. And yes, there was lots of Roman graffiti like they show in the series.
The creators did a splendid job, really. And if you're tempted to say, "that's all horrible," well yes. That was the Romans too.
If you're a progressive--i.e. someone who says that history tends to evolve toward better and better ideas--then it's easy to appreciate the Romans as a part of their time and place.
Would I want to live in ancient Rome? Certainly not. Neither should you, whether you're a man or a woman.
All true, Dean. What I also love about the show is that while it doesn't flinch away from savagery it also doesn't flinch when it shows that these people are human. Pullo and Vorenus become good friends, love exists, and betrayal can sting even the mightiest warrior.
Yeah, as VDH noted it's a great series aside from the Britishisms. Too bad its over now.
Seeing the rise of young Octavian was neat. They never got into the latter part of his reign, where he invented the concept of fair taxation. Apparently, prior to that all taxation was more like what we would think of as gangster extortion today: the collectors squeezed as much as they could from you, and they got paid based on how much they got from you. Octavian began the practice of having the collectors be paid salaries, which made commerce much smoother and led to great economic success for Rome.
I absolutely loved season one of Rome, though I couldn't help but think that they started too late in the story. Season two has been less enjoyable. However, Rome reamains my favorite show on TV. It is ashamed that the series isn't economically beneficial to HBO, but if the viewership isn't there then they made to only decision they could make. This series had so much potential.
Hopefully someone will figure out the right formula and turn this concept into a blockbuster movie.
Rome reamains my favorite show on TV. It is ashamed that the series isn't economically beneficial to HBO, but if the viewership isn't there then they made to only decision they could make.
I'm not certain viewship had much to do with it. Lots of people were watching Rome, and the DVD sales have been pretty good. Besides, since HBO relies on subscriptions and not ad revenue, viewship does not matter all that much.
The problem is that it costs so damn much to produce. HBO was careful not to skimp out on the costumes or sets (and boy, does it show!). The first season alone cost more than $100 million to make. They could only do that for so long. Personally, I give them kudos for ending it after season 2. Unfortunately, in the US we have a tendency for having shows go on way past their expiration date. Look at E.R., for a good example. As a professional television writer, I certainly understand the desire (we need our paychecks!), but it still hurts the series creatively.
On, and I actually think season 2 was a bit stronger than season 1 in many respects.
Unfortunately, in the US we have a tendency for having shows go on way past their expiration date. Look at E.R., for a good example. As a professional television writer, I certainly understand the desire (we need our paychecks!), but it still hurts the series creatively.
Amen to all of that. Most American series begin to stink after a while because they keep going well past the point where they no longer have anything to say.
But I'm not certain it's pure market forces that drive this unfortunate tendency not to want to end a series. The British and the Japanese have a system where they pretty much assume that most series will end. You plan to write something like 12 episodes of a series, and you plan for the series to be over at that point and you'll move on to something else. That something else may be a "second series" (i.e. another season) or it may be something totally different.
I think that creatively this is superior to the Hollywood system. I don't think British actors or directors or writers are inherently superior, but I think in this area they have the right mentality. Stories--good ones--basically need to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Otherwise they turn into endless masturbation and inevitably peter out because most of the audience doesn't give a damn anymore.
Mind you, there is room for the occasional series that just goes on and on forever. But even then that's with a wink and a nod to the audiece: "yes, this is a soap opera, and that's what you signed on for!"
With Rome what I would have done with a Season 3 would be to move ahead rapidly in time. All the old characters would of course age and die. We'd move through the next few Emperors very quickly. What I'd really like to get to is Constantine, and Justinian, and their worlds.
I think that creatively this is superior to the Hollywood system. I don't think British actors or directors or writers are inherently superior, but I think in this area they have the right mentality. Stories--good ones--basically need to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Otherwise they turn into endless masturbation and inevitably peter out because most of the audience doesn't give a damn anymore.
I think you're right on the money, here, Dean. Unfortunately, I don't think that mentality will completely jump across either pond anytime soon. However, I have seen some movement in that direction here in Hollywood, and that's definitely a good thing. Ron Moore seems to have that idea, as do the writers of Lost, and some others.
Here's hoping.
4.2.2007 2:02am
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
Titus Pullo and Luscius Vorenus quickly became two of my favorite TV characters of all time.
It's a real shame HBO couldn't afford to do a 3rd season, but the show was extremely expensive to produce. Still, it ends in a good place.
What I was really hoping for was that they'd keep going, and get us eventually to Byzantium.
Byzantium is one of the most important parts of this history--and Western history--that almost everyone seems to forget.
The creators of the series took all sorts of artistic liberties with them, of course. Because that's the difference between history and stageplay.
I really like the women in this story too. A lot.
By the way, yes, the Romans really were that obsessed with sex, especially male sexuality. Male sexuality was the ultimate expression of power for them. They were obsessed with the penis. Once again, I am not being provocative to say so--it's just who they were. The typical wealthy Roman home had a carved image of a penis and testes over the front door. And yes, there was lots of Roman graffiti like they show in the series.
The creators did a splendid job, really. And if you're tempted to say, "that's all horrible," well yes. That was the Romans too.
If you're a progressive--i.e. someone who says that history tends to evolve toward better and better ideas--then it's easy to appreciate the Romans as a part of their time and place.
Would I want to live in ancient Rome? Certainly not. Neither should you, whether you're a man or a woman.
Seeing the rise of young Octavian was neat. They never got into the latter part of his reign, where he invented the concept of fair taxation. Apparently, prior to that all taxation was more like what we would think of as gangster extortion today: the collectors squeezed as much as they could from you, and they got paid based on how much they got from you. Octavian began the practice of having the collectors be paid salaries, which made commerce much smoother and led to great economic success for Rome.
Hopefully someone will figure out the right formula and turn this concept into a blockbuster movie.
I'm not certain viewship had much to do with it. Lots of people were watching Rome, and the DVD sales have been pretty good. Besides, since HBO relies on subscriptions and not ad revenue, viewship does not matter all that much.
The problem is that it costs so damn much to produce. HBO was careful not to skimp out on the costumes or sets (and boy, does it show!). The first season alone cost more than $100 million to make. They could only do that for so long. Personally, I give them kudos for ending it after season 2. Unfortunately, in the US we have a tendency for having shows go on way past their expiration date. Look at E.R., for a good example. As a professional television writer, I certainly understand the desire (we need our paychecks!), but it still hurts the series creatively.
On, and I actually think season 2 was a bit stronger than season 1 in many respects.
Amen to all of that. Most American series begin to stink after a while because they keep going well past the point where they no longer have anything to say.
But I'm not certain it's pure market forces that drive this unfortunate tendency not to want to end a series. The British and the Japanese have a system where they pretty much assume that most series will end. You plan to write something like 12 episodes of a series, and you plan for the series to be over at that point and you'll move on to something else. That something else may be a "second series" (i.e. another season) or it may be something totally different.
I think that creatively this is superior to the Hollywood system. I don't think British actors or directors or writers are inherently superior, but I think in this area they have the right mentality. Stories--good ones--basically need to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Otherwise they turn into endless masturbation and inevitably peter out because most of the audience doesn't give a damn anymore.
Mind you, there is room for the occasional series that just goes on and on forever. But even then that's with a wink and a nod to the audiece: "yes, this is a soap opera, and that's what you signed on for!"
With Rome what I would have done with a Season 3 would be to move ahead rapidly in time. All the old characters would of course age and die. We'd move through the next few Emperors very quickly. What I'd really like to get to is Constantine, and Justinian, and their worlds.
I think you're right on the money, here, Dean. Unfortunately, I don't think that mentality will completely jump across either pond anytime soon. However, I have seen some movement in that direction here in Hollywood, and that's definitely a good thing. Ron Moore seems to have that idea, as do the writers of Lost, and some others.
Here's hoping.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.