That is wrong.

They haven't been quiet at all. They found alternative means to expressing themselves. Close to 100,000 Iranians write POLITICAL blogs. I wonder how that compares to the United States.

I'll tell you what the problem is: the right wing spin machine on Iran doesn't know jack about Iran.

The left does. Join the left Martin.

Join it! Its more hopeful.

And you forget, Ali: I came from the left. Most of my family and many of my friends are still there. I'm not hearing this news from them, either.

I don't care if you convert. I care that you give due consideration irrespective of a person's views on Bush.

Then I'm afraid you need to go back and read Dean's post one more time. There are an awful lot of good people -- including President Bush, though some are too prejudiced to believe it -- who honestly, truly believe that we are trying to make life better for the world in general and the Middle East in particular (and particularly including a large number of Muslims) by waging the War on Terror. When the reward we get for our best intentions -- not our results, our intentions -- is some subset of the various Muslim communities calling us crooks and liars and worse, it gets harder and harder to remember why we're doing it. Disagreeing with our methods is one thing; accusing us of vile motives is another. And none of this dissembling about "no, it's not you, it's Bush": it's me personally that they're calling evil, stupid, or both, because I believe President Bush has done the best and most moral job that anyone reasonably could given the circumstances. Frankly, if I didn't have Aziz and Willow and you as counter-examples (and on some days, you're the one doing the "evil, stupid, or both" schtick), I could easily decide these people are representative of all Islam; and then I might despair, and decide the Islamophobes are right, and maybe it's not worth trying to do the right thing for Muslims.

But I choose not to despair. And if that means I have to ignore some Muslim chuckleheads and say, "No, that's a chucklehead, that's not all Islam," then that's what I'm going to do.

Really and truly, understand this: Dean's stand against Islamophobia is an effort to keep the Islamophobes from driving away Muslim allies; and Dean's stand against Americaphobia is an effort to keep Muslims from driving away American allies. I don't know how you can't see that; but some days, you make it really hard for me to be supportive of Muslims in general. Why should I support people who are spitting on me? All I can do is tell myself, "That's not Islam. That's not the Muslim world as a whole. That's just some chucklehead who happens to be Muslim."

A lot of Islamophobes will swear on a stack of whatever scripture you choose that they're not Islamophobic; but Dean gave them hell because whatever their intentions, their effects were to make a lot of Muslims feel persecuted. Whether they intended it or not, their actions were Islamophobic.

I'm trying to tell you as politely as I can, Ali: no matter what you think your intentions are, you are Americaphobic. Every time you start from an assumption like you quoted...

The Bush administration sees all Islamists as radicals and all radicals as terrorists and thus they all need to be eliminated.

...you're pissing off an awful lot of Americans. If pissing off Muslims is Islamophobic, then pissing off Americans is Americaphobic.

Please go read Dean's post again, and again, until you realize that he's not criticizing you; he's trying to help you see that you're pushing people away, not persuading them.

You're not saying Bush sucks, you're saying "America, Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarians, Christians, Hindus, Soldiers, and everyone else that doesn't agree with me sucks." There's a difference.

Am I making Americans feel persecuted? Yes. Some (American) lefties make me feel persecuted by the way they present their arguments. And I know lots of lefties who feel persecuted by the way some (American) righties present their arguments.

I think I've tried to make similar points more than once.

What makes you think that the problems of Muslims in America are unique?

Keep in mind that I'm an American. Just who do you think is most likely to persecute an American. Umm. Another American. Everybody else is too far away.

You seem to think that lefties are the only people who believe it is best to let the Iranian people change their government. Shoot, I've been hearing that from righties since Bush's Axis of Evil speech. I've even said it myself. And we (the righties who said so) are all aware of how much dissent there is in Iran. The key for me has always been: Can the Iranian people do it in time to prevent Israel from being nuked by the Iranian governemnt? (And yes I know that begs a lot of questions, such as: Will Iran really nuke Israel?)

You see, Hilter wrote Mein Kampf and then he did it. Saying than the Iranian government is not serious when it says that nuking Israel is a good idea doesn't confort much. Pointing out that the Palestinians are right there doesn't confort much either. Air bursts kill more people and don't generate much fallout. And the Iranians used boys on bicycles to clear mine fields in their war with Iraq.

So far, we have two instances of a despotic nuclear power becoming a Democracy:

1. South Africa -- and that country looks like it's reverting to despotism.
2. Russia -- it has already reverted to despotism.

So will getting nukes help the situation in Iran? The jury is out.

Yours,
Wince

Ali, look in the mirror. Look in Dean's post. Same image.

Few Islamophobes recognize themselves as such. Doesn't change what they are.

Ali, you lost me right after the "right wing spin machine" crack. And I'm not even a right-winger.

You have made your own personal prejudices painfully obvious on Dean's World, including a regular series of sarcastic snarks about "the right." That sort of foolishness may play well in an all-lefty echo environment, but not over here. We're intramural, and hard to impress... :)

True, true, one may find the yin-yang equivalent oppposite on LGF, or with the Freepers, but that doesn't mean you are any more correct than they. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing, don'tcha know.

As for that "the right starts with a fist" crap, that's horseshit. If you're dumb enough to see this in terms of "we're the white hats, and they're the black hats," then you just don't have the intellectual horsepower to drive a legitimate debate. You're just as dogmatic as those you condemn.

Later on, Ali objects that he's libertarian, as if that makes a difference. Replace libertarian with Democratic, Republican, or Green; does that somehow absolve the speaker? Let's try it:

Are you kidding me? Dude, I'm a Demorcrat!
-Dude, I'm a Republican!
-Dude, I'm a Green!

...Nope, I'm sorry, buddy; holding on to a particular ideology doesn't make you bullet-proof.

After that, Ali says "I think that everyone who supports the war sucks."

Well, thanks for being a mindless, bigoted reactionary, Ali. I certainly don't think that anyone who opposes the war sucks, although many of the anti-war protest highlights I've seen tend to be negative, including the folks who burned a soldier in effigy, literally shit on an American flag, and hold up posters that say "we support troops who frag their officers."

Ali, as best I can tell you are a decent, idealistic lefty who has spent too much time with people who agree with him 100%. It's easy to generate moral indignation that way. I feel despair when I read the comments on otherwise sane pro-war blogs where regular commenters gratuitously bash the opposition. I'm reading the mirror image of your own prejudiced posts here.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that there is this large area one may loosely call the "middle," "independants," or other terms. We tend not to dogmatically adhere to rigid "right" or "left" ideologies; still many of us are war supporters. Hell, Dean is far more enthusiastically pro-war than I, and he'll throw the traitor-bomb around more quickly. Still, according to your stated doctrine, I am some sort of mindless right-wingnut goose-stepper, because I support the war.

Glenn Reynolds has been requently labelled "right wing" for some of his positions, as well as Ann Althouse. But if you look at many of their opinions, they come across frequently as center or center-left, depending on topic. Hell, Althouse voted for Gore in 2000, but she still gets the "right-winger" tag.

If you want to convince people, rule #1 is: quit insulting them.

Martin makes many good points in this thread, as does Tom. In fact, I think Wince and Marty are two of the more reflective, deeper thinkers on this blog.

I have to say, Marty nails the issue to the wall right here:

every time you go on one of your "Conservatives: Evil, Stupid, or Both" jags, you are treating me exactly like the oh-so-well-intentioned Islamophobes mistreat you. Me, and a lot of other people who would really like to support you in your good works, but have a hard time swallowing the serving of insults that come along every time you take up a cause.

But you just steadfastly refuse to see this, no matter how clearly it's explained. I know this is hard for you to hear, but it's how you come across.

I noticed you posted at least one response after the above, but you ignored Martin's response. I'd love to hear one from you.