The Talmud theory is valid for those of use that studied Talmud. IMHO, lawyering in recent history was just a lucrative career that required less post-grad work than, say, doctoring. Raising a Jewish family is expensive, you know.
Three Jewish lawyers die and go to the Gates of Heaven. There they meet the archangel Michael at the Gate. Michael asks them all which one is Herschel Lowenstein, the world-famous attorney?
Fearing that Lowenstein might be the only one allowed to make an entrance of the group all three men secretly decide to make a case that they are Lowenstein, so all three say, "I am!"
Michael questions the first one, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
To which the first answers, "The Law is God's perfect instrument and the best thing to ever happen to mankind was the imposition of it. It forces man to strive to be divine and I willing agree to be judged by it. God made man imperfect, and the Law perfect, so that man can learn divine Justice from the Law. The Law is God."
"Very, very interesting," replies Michael.
Michael then questions the second one, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
To which the second answers, "The Law is indeed perfect and divine but this is the very reason that God cannot apply the Law directly to man without mercy, for man is imperfect. Therefore the Law is the Law, but the Law is not always a fair judge, and so I leave it to God to judge who I am. God is always the best Law."
"Fascinating," replies Michael.
Then Michael turns to the last man, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
"Oh, I'm Herschel Lowenstein alright. But under what Law am I compelled to answer any question asked by you?"
To which Michael replies, "Come on in Herschel. We've been waiting on you for three weeks."
Stealing from Arnold: it's not race, it's culture.
If your culture is one that values intellectual pursuits -- including such things as studying the Talmud -- then your offspring will be more likely to pursue intellectual careers, such as the law.
And then that culture becomes an environment: if your near relatives and friends and influences are all in the intellectual fields, you're more aware of those possible careers growing up. It's the same reason why engineers' kids are prone to go into math, science, and engineering.
And then that environment becomes an opportunity, because those intellectual careers tend toward the more lucrative end of the middle (at the very least), allowing parents to afford to send their kids to better schools, tilting the odds more in their favor. A factory worker's son can go into law, but a lawyer's son can probably go to a better prep school and a better college and get accepted to a better law school.
And then culture and environment and opportunity collide to create a positive feedback effect. Talmudic study and class restrictions may be somewhere at the root of this feedback; but today, it's an entire milieu that Jewish kids inhabit. The legal field is more prevalent in their lives, making them somewhat more likely to pursue it, making it more prevalent in the lives of their children.
I saw a study somewhere that indicated that Ashkenazi Jews had an average IQ of around 120. The explanation was that they urbanized early and had to merchants and such. In effect, by not allowing them to be landholders, they were forced into a situation where intelligence increased survival chances. One would expect to see a significant increase in a trait after 75 generations of breeding.
You can't make quite the "they were forced into it by the culture" argument that you can with finance, Dean, where that is actually the case. Jews were not lawyers in significant numbers until the 20th century. Even then many of today's great Jewish law firms were founded by people who could not get jobs in the WASP "white shoe" firms of Wall Street.
Jews are as a culture more bookish, intellectual, argumentative. It's probably largely cultural -- you're right about the dialectical style of thought most famously described by the Talmud -- but people are looking into the inherited intelligence factor stuff, too. A sort of mainly genteel Japanese "antisemitism" takes the form of books sincerely teaching you "how to be like the Jews and take over the world!"
From their day of birth, Jews often live in environments where they are mistrusted, despised, and considered borderline evil beings by large numbers of people.
It’s only natural that they choose (and often thrive in) professions that garner equal distrust and disrespect.
Bankers, brokers, entertainment moguls, agents, lawyers, proctologists, …
I remember reading somewhere the reason many Jews have historic ties to money-lending and banking is because in the Middle Ages it was against the law for a Christian to make profit by lending money to another Christian. Thus, it was both profitable and necessary for the Jews to take up that niche in society.
Certainly law only became something they found themselves in comparatively recent; but they were kept away from land ownership and many other trades, so finding other things as an honorable trade became necessary. And a people who prized literacy would tend to do well at professions that required it.
I can understand how some folks might have taken offense with what I said earlier today.
So I apologize to all the bankers out there.
Actually, what I was saying could, and should, be taken as a compliment. Let me try it with a more positive spin.
A Jewish child will naturally develop a thick skin, and a strong sense of self worth. And that sense of self worth is what I was getting at.
Hes less likely to pursue the admiration of others as a life goal, and more likely to focus on a profession that provides well for his family, the opinions of others be damned.
Maybe he feels as he does because so many folks look down on him, so he has no reason to seek their approval. Or maybe its the collective knowledge passed down to him through the traditions and lessons of his religion. Then again, maybe it is a genetic predisposition for intelligence and self confidence.
More than likely, its a combination of the above, plus a few factors not even imagined here. But no matter what the cause, I have nothing but respect the Jewish professional.
Whether hes probing the depths of parody and its impact on trademark law, or using his finger to differentiate between a polyp and an undigested kernel of corn, the Jewish professional will face the task with humility, dignity, and practicality.
The thing that I have always admired about the Jews, and why I feel closer to them than any other religion, is that they stress education in extremis. While Christians in Europe were patently anti-education (ie all that you need to know is in the good book) Jews were educating themselves to understand the world around them to be able to better react to things.
Dr. Greg Cochran, a contributor at Razib's blog Gene Expression has documented Ashkenazi IQ variation. It is proven to be roughly 2 std higher than average, which is 100 for caucs, 103 for asians.
The selection gradient is higher for jews, with many trying to exterminate them. But also operative is consanguinous marriage or a tendency to marry relatives.
While enhancing IQ, this has the unfortunate effect of exposing deleterious reccessives in Ashkenazi populations, like Tay Sachs and cri du chat syndrome.
In all seriousness, your cultural points make sense. But bringing up the intelligence factor seems a bit of a stretch.
I have no reason to doubt that Jews are smarter on average. So is the assertion then that a higher IQ makes one more likely to become a lawyer? I don’t know that I can buy that, but I guess it’s possible.
Or if the assertion is that lawyers who are Jewish are likely to more intelligent than non-Jewish lawyers, and therefore more effective, then there might be a point to the discussion.
But still, I’m not so sure that a few IQ points here or there would make much of a difference in a lawyer’s effectiveness.
Then again, maybe the superiority of the “Jew lawyer” is just an urban legend, and we’re all just flapping our jaws here.
So is the assertion then that a higher IQ makes one more likely to become a lawyer? I don’t know that I can buy that, but I guess it’s possible.
Absolutely, unequivocally, beyond doubt. Not because it makes you more likely to choose law, but because it makes you more likely to reach that goal.
Three people dream of becoming lawyers. One has IQ 90, one IQ 100, and one IQ 110. Is there any doubt which one has a better chance at graduating high school with a better GPA, a better shot at a better college and a better law school, and a better shot at the bar?
Certainly Martin if everything else was equal, that would be true. Everything never is though. I would expect that willing to work hard, rather then raw native ability is more determanitive. If your IQ 90 person was willing to put everything he had into becoming a lawyer, and your IQ 110 person was lazy and unwilling to do more then just dream, I would bet on the IQ 90 person every time.
Dave, we're talking averages here. Unless you're arguing that IQ-90 people are on average harder working than IQ-110 people (and I would need a lot of data to believe that), then on average everything else <i>is</i> equal. And so on average, a an IQ-110 person has more chance to succeed at becoming a lawyer.
Of course, all three really support your point: they're all about how unusual the Jewish farmer is.
But that's also relatively recent. If you go back to early 20th century and before, there were a lot more Jewish farmers -- just like there were a lot more farmers, period. (And aren't the sheepherders in all the old western shows always Jewish?)
Well, jaymaster, that's a bit different. The Amish find the practice of law antithetical to their beliefs in a communal approach to resolving differences. (I found a great JSTOR abstract that discusses this, but don't have access to the article.) So you've gone from "Sure, Jews can farm, but most don't want to" to something analogous to "Sure, Orthodox Jews can be pork farmers, if they're willing to give up that whole 'Orthodox' thing."
Commenting on Dean's World is a privilege, not a right. Dean is your host, you are his guest, and you should behave in that fashion. Dean is not your babysitter, nor is he your punching bag. Please remember this. In general, you are free to disagree with anyone on any subject you wish, but abusive behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.
The Talmud theory is valid for those of use that studied Talmud. IMHO, lawyering in recent history was just a lucrative career that required less post-grad work than, say, doctoring. Raising a Jewish family is expensive, you know.
Three Jewish lawyers die and go to the Gates of Heaven. There they meet the archangel Michael at the Gate. Michael asks them all which one is Herschel Lowenstein, the world-famous attorney?
Fearing that Lowenstein might be the only one allowed to make an entrance of the group all three men secretly decide to make a case that they are Lowenstein, so all three say, "I am!"
Michael questions the first one, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
To which the first answers, "The Law is God's perfect instrument and the best thing to ever happen to mankind was the imposition of it. It forces man to strive to be divine and I willing agree to be judged by it. God made man imperfect, and the Law perfect, so that man can learn divine Justice from the Law. The Law is God."
"Very, very interesting," replies Michael.
Michael then questions the second one, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
To which the second answers, "The Law is indeed perfect and divine but this is the very reason that God cannot apply the Law directly to man without mercy, for man is imperfect. Therefore the Law is the Law, but the Law is not always a fair judge, and so I leave it to God to judge who I am. God is always the best Law."
"Fascinating," replies Michael.
Then Michael turns to the last man, "Well if you are truly Herschel Lowenstein then what can you tell me of the Law?"
"Oh, I'm Herschel Lowenstein alright. But under what Law am I compelled to answer any question asked by you?"
To which Michael replies, "Come on in Herschel. We've been waiting on you for three weeks."
If your culture is one that values intellectual pursuits -- including such things as studying the Talmud -- then your offspring will be more likely to pursue intellectual careers, such as the law.
And then that culture becomes an environment: if your near relatives and friends and influences are all in the intellectual fields, you're more aware of those possible careers growing up. It's the same reason why engineers' kids are prone to go into math, science, and engineering.
And then that environment becomes an opportunity, because those intellectual careers tend toward the more lucrative end of the middle (at the very least), allowing parents to afford to send their kids to better schools, tilting the odds more in their favor. A factory worker's son can go into law, but a lawyer's son can probably go to a better prep school and a better college and get accepted to a better law school.
And then culture and environment and opportunity collide to create a positive feedback effect. Talmudic study and class restrictions may be somewhere at the root of this feedback; but today, it's an entire milieu that Jewish kids inhabit. The legal field is more prevalent in their lives, making them somewhat more likely to pursue it, making it more prevalent in the lives of their children.
I only wish I had jewish ancestry.
Jews are as a culture more bookish, intellectual, argumentative. It's probably largely cultural -- you're right about the dialectical style of thought most famously described by the Talmud -- but people are looking into the inherited intelligence factor stuff, too. A sort of mainly genteel Japanese "antisemitism" takes the form of books sincerely teaching you "how to be like the Jews and take over the world!"
I suspect however that it is often more of an inverse relationship.
On a more optimistic note I think the Cylons are probably Jews.
It’s only natural that they choose (and often thrive in) professions that garner equal distrust and disrespect.
Bankers, brokers, entertainment moguls, agents, lawyers, proctologists, …
And it's not easy being trusted when you're always sneaking up from behind somebody. Or just sneaking up somebody's behind.
So I apologize to all the bankers out there.
Actually, what I was saying could, and should, be taken as a compliment. Let me try it with a more positive spin.
A Jewish child will naturally develop a thick skin, and a strong sense of self worth. And that sense of self worth is what I was getting at.
Hes less likely to pursue the admiration of others as a life goal, and more likely to focus on a profession that provides well for his family, the opinions of others be damned.
Maybe he feels as he does because so many folks look down on him, so he has no reason to seek their approval. Or maybe its the collective knowledge passed down to him through the traditions and lessons of his religion. Then again, maybe it is a genetic predisposition for intelligence and self confidence.
More than likely, its a combination of the above, plus a few factors not even imagined here. But no matter what the cause, I have nothing but respect the Jewish professional.
Whether hes probing the depths of parody and its impact on trademark law, or using his finger to differentiate between a polyp and an undigested kernel of corn, the Jewish professional will face the task with humility, dignity, and practicality.
And all he asks for in return, is net 30.
For that, we should all be thankful.
Jesse yes that is very true...
The selection gradient is higher for jews, with many trying to exterminate them. But also operative is consanguinous marriage or a tendency to marry relatives.
While enhancing IQ, this has the unfortunate effect of exposing deleterious reccessives in Ashkenazi populations, like Tay Sachs and cri du chat syndrome.
Even though that’s not nearly as fun….
In all seriousness, your cultural points make sense. But bringing up the intelligence factor seems a bit of a stretch.
I have no reason to doubt that Jews are smarter on average. So is the assertion then that a higher IQ makes one more likely to become a lawyer? I don’t know that I can buy that, but I guess it’s possible.
Or if the assertion is that lawyers who are Jewish are likely to more intelligent than non-Jewish lawyers, and therefore more effective, then there might be a point to the discussion.
But still, I’m not so sure that a few IQ points here or there would make much of a difference in a lawyer’s effectiveness.
Then again, maybe the superiority of the “Jew lawyer” is just an urban legend, and we’re all just flapping our jaws here.
Absolutely, unequivocally, beyond doubt. Not because it makes you more likely to choose law, but because it makes you more likely to reach that goal.
Three people dream of becoming lawyers. One has IQ 90, one IQ 100, and one IQ 110. Is there any doubt which one has a better chance at graduating high school with a better GPA, a better shot at a better college and a better law school, and a better shot at the bar?
I'm just sayin'.
JEWISH FARMER IN AMERICA THE UNKNOWN CHRONICLE by Jacob L. ORNSTEIN-GALICIA
E-I-E-I-OY!: How I Became a Jewish Farmer in Middletown, America by Rich Ossias
Jewish Farmers (TIME Magazine)
Of course, all three really support your point: they're all about how unusual the Jewish farmer is.
But that's also relatively recent. If you go back to early 20th century and before, there were a lot more Jewish farmers -- just like there were a lot more farmers, period. (And aren't the sheepherders in all the old western shows always Jewish?)
Find me an Amish lawyer!
(Beechy don't count)
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.