For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Dean
Good bye and good luck to contributors Ron Coleman and Kevin Dombrowski. I know Ron Coleman's going to keep doing great work. Kevin I'm a little worried about, considering the horrible crowd he's just thrown in with. My hope is that he learns a lot from his experience with them, though.
I can't technically say goodbye to my lovely wife, since were just having dinner and chatting amiably, and are going to be watching American Idol soon. We don't take blog stuff personally, in case you were wondering. Ask her if you don't believe me. ;-)
Anyway, I'm sure there may be some more fallout from my line in the sand. Maybe some other resignations or whatever. All I can say is, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
You make choices, and you live by those choices.
I will say that I wound up rethinking slightly this afternoon. Which is the nature of blogging I guess. I crossed a few words out of the original post and made some slight addendums. Nothing big, but perhaps enough to assuage some of you.
Others of you, not so much.
I note that much is being made of assertion #3:
3) Islam as a religion is no more inherently incompatible with modernity, minority rights, women's rights, or democratic pluralism than most religions.
The words "no more" and "most" and "inherant" are operative, of course. Further, none of this demands that you accept that Islam is true or right, Muhammed was a prophet, etc.
Some have argued that the assertion is empirically impossible to verify one way or the other, and thus cannot be either agreed with or disagreed with. I merely point out that if it's empirically impossible to verify, it is a question of perception, and moral judgment.
And if it's merely a question of perception and moral judgment, then it's my moral judgment that you've got an obligation to presume #3 is true absent inarguable evidence to the contrary. And to ask yourself why the perception is there, and what should be done about that perception besides ranting about the Muslim Threat.
In any case, I cannot look every day on this blog and wince at what I find morally reprehensible. Not to mention deeply destructive to the goals of defending freedom against terrorism (Islamofascist and otherwise).
I hope Ron Coleman will remember one thing though:
I'm no Jew. Ain't never been one, ain't never gonna be one. Ain't related to any. And I'm no Evangelical Christian who is convinced that by helping Israel he's going to speed the coming of the Rapture in accordance with God's plan for the eventual conversion of all the currently living Jews--all the dead ones (men, women, and children alike of course) already being condemned to eternal Hellfire. Please do remember that these are the folks who are your friends at the moment, Ron.
Anyway, why do I care about anti-semitism, and why do I defend Israel? It's the same humanist values that drives me to rage when I see hatred of Muslims.
We all have different motivations I guess.
Anyway, as for comment accounts: I nuked one. I have no intentions of nuking any others. Another couple left on their own, which is up to them. The rest of you can answer the dicatates of your own conscience. I edited to require that you start with certain presumptions if you're going to enter discussions on these matters. Make of that what you will. I won't run a blog that promotes things I consider morally repugnant.
I can't get up every morning wondering if something else appearing on this blog is going to make me ashamed as a human being.
*Update*: Martin Shoemaker, in an earlier comment that I only just saw, seems to have understood my original, unchanged words better than others. He's right in what he says right here. Especially the word "inherant."
*Update 2* Once again I just can't keep up with the avalanche of commentary. I really can't keep up with it. If there's some specific argument you think I have not addressed, or some moral point you think I need correcting on, put it here.
All Related Posts (on one page) | Some Related Posts:
- Heartening
- The new Editorial Policy
- "Ideological Purity"...
- Litmus Tests
- For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
- Blogging and Bigotry...
- My two cents
- Non-Negotiable
- Dean's World Line In The Sand: Make A Choice









Elisha: Oh, I think we will. I'm still around, and lots of interesting stuff will be happening in 2007.
Maybe the Muslims of Detroit have made peace with their neighbors. Maybe they're just biding their time. I don't know, but I'm not willing to drop my guard.
The ultimate answer to aggressive ideology of any stripe is the Second Amendment.
And that is one good reason I like you so much Martin. I may not always comment but I do read Dean's World everyday that I can.
Dean and Rosemary go together like peas and carrots. They are a couple that love one another deeply and Dean was twirled around on his head when he met his dear Rose. I agree with Tall Dave about the two of them.
I'm going to stay around because I don't get involved in the Islam threads. I learn so much from them. I was ignorant of Muslim's as well and have learned so much. That has meant so much to me.
Sorry. I'm obsessive-compulsive. :-(
The changes you made to your original post make a lot of sense. Good on you for that. I don't agree that anyone has a higher moral duty to portray Islam in a certain way (much less to think of Islam in a certain way) than they have to be honest with themselves, and others, about whether they do or do not know something.
That sort of thinking is the basis for almost all political correctness, and is a slippery slope, imo. This was one of the only (I assume there are others but I haven't found a single one) places where honest, generally reasonable arguments about Islam took place. You risk turning Dean's World into an echo-chamber. I've learned quite a lot about Islam here, and I'm afraid the quality of posts and comments on the subject will drop dramatically.
That's why, though I happily concur with every one of Dean's five points, I'm really uncomfortable with the litmus test/line in the sand/ultimatum/purge/nuke/call it what you will. I think there's a benefit to having the discussion: even if the extremes are unpersuadable, the middle can learn.
But it's not My World. If Dean is tired of seeing and managing an extreme that he finds offensive, I've got no business telling him he has to keep at it as a public service.
I've got absolutely nothing against litmus tests. If this is truly part of yours, I'm not welcome here.
A is A.
Dean, the "Left Behind" mentality is held by a subset of evangelical Christians. It is not a defining belief of evangelicals as such.
I think I'm banned now, although there's some subjectivity in the new litmus test that I haven't worked (weaseled?) through completely.
I'm not even going to get into whether I agree or disagree with Assertion #3, but I must say that I am concerned if any dissent from said assertion is automatically equated with religious bigotry. That conclusion is far from obvious for me.
Dean, do you allow the possibility that someone could take issue with assertion #3 and not be a bigot?
Dean, I'm SO sorry you've had all this stress. (I'm sorry everyone had stress) Sure, I'm going to especially miss Ron and Kevin, but in the end ... I don't come here to read Ron and Kevin. They're good filler, even EXCEPTIONALLY great filler, but still.
And, you know, its a good thing you're not married to someone psychotically passive-aggressive who'd unplug the tv before Idol :)
I've been re-reading A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and something really struck out to me:
And that is my problem with Islam. I think that Islam is fairly unique in that I think it lends itself to being an Established Church. This is reinforced by the observation that American Muslims are the most, what, modern? of Islam. Most of the places that are making Bad Muslims (meaning Muslims who occupy a significant part of thier day trying to figure out how to kill me) come from states with Islam as the Established Church.
If Islam is inherently geared towards being an state religeon, then yes, it is "more inherently incompatible with modernity, minority rights, women's rights, or democratic pluralism than most religions." Is it incompatible with a state that has no established church? It obviously is not, as evidenced by both American Muslims and states like Turkey. But the question is not "can it be done," the question is "does it inherently lean that way?" If that is the case, it is more dangerous that most beliefs, and while it shouldn't be outlawed, it should be observed.
Of course we all lose our tempers now and then. Dean freely admits to being imperfect in this regard, which is why regulars to this establishment will generally be cut more slack than people who we don't know very well.
Still: behave like an adult, or go find somewhere else to play. Thanks.