While I don't want to put words in Dean's mouth, I think he's talking about recent instances--which received broad media coverage--of attacks on Christians and Jews in Turkey. That's not quite the same thing as official oppression, of course, but it is some indication that not all Turks are in favor of religious tolerance.
Then there's the "Islamic drift" of the government, which has secular Kemalists truly worried.
One factor that I think moderates this is that Turkish Muslims come in a variety of 'flavors', ranging from different Sunni and Shi'a Sufi sects, to more 'orthodox' Sunni and Shi'a communities. But also salafists, alas.
Ali: we are brothers in spirit. Furthermore, as I have already said, I admire many things about modern Turkey. Other than the issue with the Kurds (which we can get to later) or the historic issue of the Armenians (which we can also get to later and which is about 80 years done now, and which I do not think modern Turks have to answer for anymore than I think modern Germans have to answer for the Holocaust of 60+ years ago), I admire how far Turkey has come in the last few generations.
BUT:
It is illegal anywhere in Turkey to try to convert anyone to any religion other than Islam. It is punishable by law to do so. You're allowed to be a member of another religion, but you are not allowed to do anything to attempt to convert someone to another religion--not even through marriage. It's punishable by law as "anti-Turkish." Ditto anyone who criticizes Turkish history, which is why Orhan Pamuk is still facing charges there. Not for "religious crimes" per se, but for being "anti-Turkish" if you do such things.
Such things like, y'know, wearing Christian or Jewish (or Hindu or Buddhist or anything else) clerical clothing in public, or openly proselytizing for members of any faith. Indeed, even offering to convert a woman or a man to Christianity if he or she wants to marry a Christian, that's illegal too.
Which explains why Turkey used to have millions of Christians and many many Jews and Turkey is now 99.7% Muslim.
Furthermore, the Turkish government owns all mosques--all of them, no kidding--and semi-regularly issues orders about what they are allowed to say in those mosques and what they are not.
So don't let us kid ourselves Ali. I would rather live in Turkey than most nations on this Earth. In fact, not to insult you, but I'd rather live there than your native Pakistan. But true religious freedom simply does not exist in Turkey, and that is shameful.
John: No. I know you're trying to come to my defense, but you're missing it.
In Turkey, it is considered "anti-Turkish" to openly and publicly advocate for any religion other than Islam. Punishable by prison sentence.
Non-Muslim clerics are not even allowed to wear their adornments in public. Wearing a crucifix is punishable. Distributing Bibles for the purposes of declaring Jesus the Son of God is punishable by law.
They are a secularist state, one which allows much freedom and has open elections. But: members of minority religions are not actively persecuted, but any effort they make to be outspoken about their faith is punishable.
The Freedom House Report on Turkey is quite clear about the matter: they have open and free and competitive elections. They have free elections, and respect for women's rights.
But: they have not made the ranking of "liberal democracy" (2.5 or better) because they still do not allow speech considered "anti-Turkish," and they still make it illegal for anyone other than a Muslim to openly advocate for their religious faith.
This is shameful. Turkey needs to stop this.
The Turks are just afraid to do so because it might mean that instead of being 99.7% Muslim they might suddenly find a bunch of Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Hindus and Ba'hai and Zoroastrians and more in their midsts. And they still officially consider all of that "anti-Turkish."
Once again: it's not illegal to be a Jew. But Jewish clergy are not allowed to walk around in public in rabbinical clothing. Jews are not allowed to openly advocate for their faith. A Jewish man or woman who wishes to marry a Muslim is entirely allowed to convert to Islam, but a Muslim boy or girl who tries to marry a Jew will immediately subject those clergy who offer to convert them to Judaism to charges of being "anti-Turkish."
There used to be millions of Christians in Turkey--which used to, after all, be the center of the Eastern Orthodoxy. Now there are only a few thousands of Christians left anywhere in the country, and almost no Jews to speak of.
Not because Islam convinced them all, but because the government used passive-aggressive methods to make them go away over time.
The Patriarch of Constantinople used to be the honored head of the Eastern Orthodoxy, the antipodal answer to the Pope in Rome. Now Constantinople (now it's Istanbul) has maybe a few thousand Christians left.
It's not that they made it illegal to be Christian. They just made it impossible for anyone to advocate for Christianity or even wear Christian raimants in public, or convert anyone to Christianity.
Sadly, Benedict this week visited with the chief patriarch in Istanbul. At one time they were roughly co-equal in the world. Now Benedict leads a flock of almost a billion, and the patriarch in Constantinople leads a flock of literally less than a 20,000.
Not because Islam persuaded everybody, either. To Islam's shame.
By the way, Ali: I was not in the least bit nice to Meryl, and she didn't deserve it--terrorist apologist that she is.
So now I'm challenging you to take the same position:
Will you please openly and publicly advocate that Turkey end all laws which limit any expression of religion in the public square (including any limitation on clerical or personal religious garb), end any laws against converting anyone to any religion other than Islam, and any other laws which limit free religious as well as political expression?
It's an open challenge. Will you answer it forthrightly?
By the way, I wouldn't even mind if you said it's okay if Turkey wants to titularly declare itself a "Muslim state," just as I do not object to the Jews calling Israel a Jewish state. I don't have any more problem with that than I do the fact that the UK still considers itself officially Christian--which it does. So let's not play word games: should Turkey get rid of these oppressive laws or should it not?
should Turkey get rid of these oppressive laws or should it not?
dean, as grand fatwamaker and islamic superninja level 9, i say yes, child.
seriously, im not historically a 'fan' of the turkish state. i am just for now focusing on the positive.
nevertheless, i also think its weird that i, from time to time, have to make such 'official pronouncements.' i mean, i don't really mind, but seriously, who in their right mind, after seeing my site, and my works, and the whole humanist muslim movement, believes that i'd think otherwise?
in short, why can't it just be assumed that i'd oppose repression of that kind?
but, maybe the need for a statement is that important (to you).
Probably because you said "I am not sure which religious freedom Dean is talking about here. I think he means that women cannot wear scarves and certain institutions are militantly secular."
Ali. You challenged me for questioning Turkey's committment to religious freedom, then brought up side issues like headscarves in France. I consider such issues important--I have no truck with those who would try to outlaw the hijab--but I think this discussion goes well beyond that.
Questions for the Turks:
Should Christian and Jewish clerics be forbidden from appearing in public in their clerical attire?
Should it be considered "un-Turkish" to convert someone to Judaism or Christianity in Turkey?
Should Islam be the only faith that's considered OK to convert to in Turkey?
I do not think these unfair questions. Look, it's a simple question: should the Turks grant freedom of religion before they're admitted as full members of the EU or should they not?
Can Islam not survive in the free market of ideas? Or does it need government enforcement to survive?
I require only one small amendment to the Turkish constitution: Full freedom of religious conscience.
You must recognize, Ali, that I don't treat any of my Christian, Jewish, atheist, or other friends to a lesser standard.
Don't change the subject to headscarves in the public schools please. Yes it's wrong that the French do that, but how does it compare to outlawing all non-Islamic religious expression?
Do the Turks support freedom of religion or do they not? Benedict is right to raise the issue.
The Patriarch of Constantinople cannot walk the streets of Istanbul in his full clerical raiments without risking being arrested as "anti-Turkish."
A Turkish boy who wants to marry a Jewish girl, and convert to Judaism, cannot do so without risking the rabbis who help him convert being put into jail.
Please let us not put this on the same level as French schools forbidding religious attire for kids while in school. They're both offensive but they are not on the same level.
The Turks should not be welcomed into the world of free nations until they grant freedom of conscience to all citizens.
Can Islam not survive in the free market of ideas?
Well, Christianity in Europe has been dying for decades. So maybe they're right to be worried.
But let's call a spade a spade here. We're not talking about Islam's survival so much as the whether mullahs will be allowed to bully people with violence and threats. It's the same argument Christians have had.
Dean: You raise good points. But you have to find a way to explain how Mexico and France, to name two countries not Muslim, prohibit the public wearing of religious habits or even crosses or Stars of David in public.
It is a criminal offense in Mexico for a nun to wear a habit on the street. It is a criminal offense to wear a crucifix in a French governmental building.
Should these manifestations of anti-religiosity be condemned also?
John: The last I heard, the French ban the wearing of religious garb in public institutions--government offices, state-run schools, etc.
Not as a matter of general law, like in Turkey. The Pope would be arrested in Turkey if he were not on an official state-sanctioned visit. For what? Just for the crime of walking around in his everyday garb. Furthermore, it would only be because they were Christian raimants, for that would be "un-Turkish." An Imam dressed in any form of religious garb would be just fine.
This is simply not the same level of oppression as telling kids in French schools not to show up in school wearing a hijab or a kipa or a crucifix. I might condemn both policies but I recognize that one is simply not the same level of religious oppression as the other.
Ali: You brought it up my man. I agree with you that it's wrong to expect everyday Muslims to routinely denounce X, Y, or Z. But dude, you just implied that Turkey's no worse than France on this matter. Yes they are, they're a lot worse.
And by the way, I have defended Turkey many many times. It is basically a good country. But on the religious freedom score, if America gets a 9 out of 10, and France gets a 7 out of 10, Turkey gets a 2 out of 10. It's just the truth.
Then there's the "Islamic drift" of the government, which has secular Kemalists truly worried.
One factor that I think moderates this is that Turkish Muslims come in a variety of 'flavors', ranging from different Sunni and Shi'a Sufi sects, to more 'orthodox' Sunni and Shi'a communities. But also salafists, alas.
BUT:
It is illegal anywhere in Turkey to try to convert anyone to any religion other than Islam. It is punishable by law to do so. You're allowed to be a member of another religion, but you are not allowed to do anything to attempt to convert someone to another religion--not even through marriage. It's punishable by law as "anti-Turkish." Ditto anyone who criticizes Turkish history, which is why Orhan Pamuk is still facing charges there. Not for "religious crimes" per se, but for being "anti-Turkish" if you do such things.
Such things like, y'know, wearing Christian or Jewish (or Hindu or Buddhist or anything else) clerical clothing in public, or openly proselytizing for members of any faith. Indeed, even offering to convert a woman or a man to Christianity if he or she wants to marry a Christian, that's illegal too.
Which explains why Turkey used to have millions of Christians and many many Jews and Turkey is now 99.7% Muslim.
Furthermore, the Turkish government owns all mosques--all of them, no kidding--and semi-regularly issues orders about what they are allowed to say in those mosques and what they are not.
So don't let us kid ourselves Ali. I would rather live in Turkey than most nations on this Earth. In fact, not to insult you, but I'd rather live there than your native Pakistan. But true religious freedom simply does not exist in Turkey, and that is shameful.
In Turkey, it is considered "anti-Turkish" to openly and publicly advocate for any religion other than Islam. Punishable by prison sentence.
Non-Muslim clerics are not even allowed to wear their adornments in public. Wearing a crucifix is punishable. Distributing Bibles for the purposes of declaring Jesus the Son of God is punishable by law.
They are a secularist state, one which allows much freedom and has open elections. But: members of minority religions are not actively persecuted, but any effort they make to be outspoken about their faith is punishable.
The Freedom House Report on Turkey is quite clear about the matter: they have open and free and competitive elections. They have free elections, and respect for women's rights.
But: they have not made the ranking of "liberal democracy" (2.5 or better) because they still do not allow speech considered "anti-Turkish," and they still make it illegal for anyone other than a Muslim to openly advocate for their religious faith.
This is shameful. Turkey needs to stop this.
The Turks are just afraid to do so because it might mean that instead of being 99.7% Muslim they might suddenly find a bunch of Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Hindus and Ba'hai and Zoroastrians and more in their midsts. And they still officially consider all of that "anti-Turkish."
I'm not making any of this up.
Almost none left, although there used to be many.
Once again: it's not illegal to be a Jew. But Jewish clergy are not allowed to walk around in public in rabbinical clothing. Jews are not allowed to openly advocate for their faith. A Jewish man or woman who wishes to marry a Muslim is entirely allowed to convert to Islam, but a Muslim boy or girl who tries to marry a Jew will immediately subject those clergy who offer to convert them to Judaism to charges of being "anti-Turkish."
There used to be millions of Christians in Turkey--which used to, after all, be the center of the Eastern Orthodoxy. Now there are only a few thousands of Christians left anywhere in the country, and almost no Jews to speak of.
Not because Islam convinced them all, but because the government used passive-aggressive methods to make them go away over time.
The Patriarch of Constantinople used to be the honored head of the Eastern Orthodoxy, the antipodal answer to the Pope in Rome. Now Constantinople (now it's Istanbul) has maybe a few thousand Christians left.
It's not that they made it illegal to be Christian. They just made it impossible for anyone to advocate for Christianity or even wear Christian raimants in public, or convert anyone to Christianity.
Sadly, Benedict this week visited with the chief patriarch in Istanbul. At one time they were roughly co-equal in the world. Now Benedict leads a flock of almost a billion, and the patriarch in Constantinople leads a flock of literally less than a 20,000.
Not because Islam persuaded everybody, either. To Islam's shame.
So now I'm challenging you to take the same position:
Will you please openly and publicly advocate that Turkey end all laws which limit any expression of religion in the public square (including any limitation on clerical or personal religious garb), end any laws against converting anyone to any religion other than Islam, and any other laws which limit free religious as well as political expression?
It's an open challenge. Will you answer it forthrightly?
By the way, I wouldn't even mind if you said it's okay if Turkey wants to titularly declare itself a "Muslim state," just as I do not object to the Jews calling Israel a Jewish state. I don't have any more problem with that than I do the fact that the UK still considers itself officially Christian--which it does. So let's not play word games: should Turkey get rid of these oppressive laws or should it not?
This is obscene.
dean, as grand fatwamaker and islamic superninja level 9, i say yes, child.
seriously, im not historically a 'fan' of the turkish state. i am just for now focusing on the positive.
nevertheless, i also think its weird that i, from time to time, have to make such 'official pronouncements.' i mean, i don't really mind, but seriously, who in their right mind, after seeing my site, and my works, and the whole humanist muslim movement, believes that i'd think otherwise?
in short, why can't it just be assumed that i'd oppose repression of that kind?
but, maybe the need for a statement is that important (to you).
Probably because you said "I am not sure which religious freedom Dean is talking about here. I think he means that women cannot wear scarves and certain institutions are militantly secular."
Questions for the Turks:
Should Christian and Jewish clerics be forbidden from appearing in public in their clerical attire?
Should it be considered "un-Turkish" to convert someone to Judaism or Christianity in Turkey?
Should Islam be the only faith that's considered OK to convert to in Turkey?
I do not think these unfair questions. Look, it's a simple question: should the Turks grant freedom of religion before they're admitted as full members of the EU or should they not?
Can Islam not survive in the free market of ideas? Or does it need government enforcement to survive?
I require only one small amendment to the Turkish constitution: Full freedom of religious conscience.
You must recognize, Ali, that I don't treat any of my Christian, Jewish, atheist, or other friends to a lesser standard.
Also by the way: why is Orhan Pamuk under trial for sedition?
Don't change the subject to headscarves in the public schools please. Yes it's wrong that the French do that, but how does it compare to outlawing all non-Islamic religious expression?
Do the Turks support freedom of religion or do they not? Benedict is right to raise the issue.
A Turkish boy who wants to marry a Jewish girl, and convert to Judaism, cannot do so without risking the rabbis who help him convert being put into jail.
Please let us not put this on the same level as French schools forbidding religious attire for kids while in school. They're both offensive but they are not on the same level.
The Turks should not be welcomed into the world of free nations until they grant freedom of conscience to all citizens.
Well, Christianity in Europe has been dying for decades. So maybe they're right to be worried.
But let's call a spade a spade here. We're not talking about Islam's survival so much as the whether mullahs will be allowed to bully people with violence and threats. It's the same argument Christians have had.
It is a criminal offense in Mexico for a nun to wear a habit on the street. It is a criminal offense to wear a crucifix in a French governmental building.
Should these manifestations of anti-religiosity be condemned also?
Look Turkey is worlds ahead of most of the muslim world in religous freedom
and its compairable to Greece where Blasphemy is still a crime
but it aint free
Not as a matter of general law, like in Turkey. The Pope would be arrested in Turkey if he were not on an official state-sanctioned visit. For what? Just for the crime of walking around in his everyday garb. Furthermore, it would only be because they were Christian raimants, for that would be "un-Turkish." An Imam dressed in any form of religious garb would be just fine.
This is simply not the same level of oppression as telling kids in French schools not to show up in school wearing a hijab or a kipa or a crucifix. I might condemn both policies but I recognize that one is simply not the same level of religious oppression as the other.
Ali: You brought it up my man. I agree with you that it's wrong to expect everyday Muslims to routinely denounce X, Y, or Z. But dude, you just implied that Turkey's no worse than France on this matter. Yes they are, they're a lot worse.
And by the way, I have defended Turkey many many times. It is basically a good country. But on the religious freedom score, if America gets a 9 out of 10, and France gets a 7 out of 10, Turkey gets a 2 out of 10. It's just the truth.