Dean's World

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the Associated Press is pro-victory

The Associated Press has faced considerable critique about its horrific story about six Shi'a men being burned alive by Sunnis in Baghdad. The critique hinges one the claim by the US military that the AP's source, a police captain Capt. Jamil Hussein, misrepresented himself. From a letter written by Lt. Michael Dean to the Associated Press:

We can tell you definitively that the primary source of this story, police Capt. Jamil Hussein, is not a Baghdad police officer or an MOI employee. We verified this fact with the MOI through the Coalition Police Assistance Training Team.

Also, we definitely know, as we told you several weeks ago through the MNC-I Media Relations cell, that another AP-popular IP spokesman, Lt. Maithem Abdul Razzaq, supposedly of the city's Yarmouk police station, does not work at that police station and is also not authorized to speak on behalf of the IP. The MOI has supposedly issued a warrant for his questioning. [...] Unless you have a credible source to corroborate the story of the people being burned alive, we respectfully request that AP issue a retraction, or a correction at a minimum, acknowledging that the source named in the story is not who he claimed he was.

The AP however made it clear that their source was legitimate. From a response letter written by AP International Editor John Daniszewski:

AP reporters who have been working in Iraq throughout the conflict learned of the mosque incident through witnesses and neighborhood residents and corroborated it with a named police spokesmen and also through hospital and morgue workers.

We have conducted a thorough review of the sourcing and reporting involved and plan to move a more detailed report about the entire incident soon, with greater detail provided by multiple eye witnesses. Several of those witnesses spoke to AP on the condition that their names would not be used because they fear reprisals.

The police captain cited in our story has long been known to the AP reporters and has been interviewed in his office and by telephone on several occasions during the past two years.

He is an officer at the police station in Yarmouk, with a record of reliability and truthfulness. His full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein.

The AP stands by its story.

In fact, the AP then produced the follow-up with more sources as promised.

Seeking further information about Friday's attack, an AP reporter contacted Hussein for a third time about the incident to confirm there was no error. The captain has been a regular source of police information for two years and had been visited by the AP reporter in his office at the police station on several occasions. The captain, who gave his full name as Jamil Gholaiem Hussein, said six people were indeed set on fire.

On Tuesday, two AP reporters also went back to the Hurriyah neighborhood around the Mustafa mosque and found three witnesses who independently gave accounts of the attack. Others in the neighborhood said they were afraid to talk about what happened.

Those who would talk said the assault began about 2:15 p.m., and they believed the attackers were from the Mahdi Army militia loyal to radical anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. He and the Shiite militia are deeply rooted in and control the Sadr City enclave in northeastern Baghdad where suspected Sunni insurgents attacked with a series of car bombs and mortar shells, killing at least 215 people a day before.

The witnesses refused to allow the use of their names because they feared retribution either from the original attackers or the police, whose ranks are infiltrated by Mahdi Army members or its associated death squads.

Two of the witnesses — a 45-year-old bookshop owner and a 48-year-old neighborhood grocery owner — gave nearly identical accounts of what happened. A third, a physician, said he saw the attack on the mosque from his home, saw it burning and heard people in the streets screaming that people had been set on fire. All three men are Sunni Muslims.

So let's recap here. The AP prinmts a story. The military objects, casting doubt on the source, and asks for either a retractio or to provide additional witnesses. The AP demonstrates that their source was in fact legitimate, and then also provides additional sources.

This whole affair speaks to a larger issue of "news out of Iraq". The belief seems to be that if the general public is shielded from bad news, or that bad news is minimized, or even outright denied, then that will maintain support for the war, or at least counteract the increasing lack of support.

This systematic campaign to delegitimize the media has backfired. By pretending that things are actually rosy and that good progress has been made (and it is no slight upon the honor and sacrifice of brave Iraqis or US soldiers to acknowledge otherwise), proponents of the campaign in Iraq have weakened their case. That is precisely why the public sentiment has hardened.

Had the media simply been muzzled for the past five years, as the most extreme of the media critics demand, then the public may have been ignorant of the details on the ground, but the reason we are losing the war in Iraq against the forces of anarchy is the fault of the insurgents, and a lack on our side not of will to sacrifice and fight but simply in resources, planning, and organization. I mean, isn't is truly shameful that we are only hearing about "going long" now, three years after the invasion? And make no mistake - it's liberals and Democrats who came up with that idea first.

To be honest, i still favor staying in Iraq. If we do withdraw fully, we will be ensuring that the brave voices of freedom upon whom the future liberty of all the oppressed masses in the middle east hinges, will die hideous deaths. It would be supreme cynicism to abandon Iraq.

The failure thus far is of execution, not principle, which is why the Administration is so desperate to whitewash the metrics by success or failure might by any reasonable standard be measured. And thus we see the Lancet study attacked, daily reports of deaths attacked, violence in iraq compared to urban street violence in the US, etc. To these critics I simply ask, what metric would YOU accept that would definitively show that we have failed in Iraq? But asking the question is pointless - especially since they have never been able to satisfactorily define victory. I mean, the Administration is so detached from the reality they'd prefer that they are actually considering choosing sides in the civil war whose raging they still refuse to acknowledge.

Elections were simply a (purple) fig leaf. But democracy is an end state, built upon a robust and rigorous foundation of stability, security, and personal freedom. The right of the individual as a sovereign must be secured by liberal constitutionlism first, before any talk of representative government can be entertained. Otherwise, you end up electing Hamas.

What is needed now is indeed to go long. Follow Phil Carter's prescription to abandon the superfortresses and increase the embedded advisers. Give Maliki an ultimatum: rein in the Shi'a militias, or lose control of your (still sovereign nation)'s armed forces. Engage Syria - there's plenty of carrots to peel them off of Iran and re-align with us, to the benefit of Israel and to Iraq.

And we need to celebrate the media for its role in keeping the pressure on. Because the Administration would rather "pick sides" and "declare victory and go home" rather than make the hard choices and the commitments that have been needed from the start.

UPDATE: A well-deserved apology to Tall Dave in the comments. I am an idiot. I'm still correct and he is still mistaken, but I am a correct idiot. That is all.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. the Associated Press is pro-victory
  2. A Rather Unreliable Media
Posted by Aziz P | Permalink | Technorati Trackbacks
John_B (mail) (www):
Aziz: With all respect, I don't know where you're finding these cheerleaders for the success of US efforts in Iraq. Even those who support Bush unequivocally aren't claiming that everything's going peachy, at least in the broad range of media I read.

I can imagine that there are some blogs out there that are so deluded, but I can not imagine they have the influence you ascribe to them.

The complaint about the MSM hasn't been that they report negative news. It's been that they only report negative news.

But Iraq reporting isn't what's causing public respect for media to tank. General American attitudes toward the media are caused by a variety of factors ranging from media arrogance to exploitation to generally not having a clue about ordinary people and their lives. That won't be corrected by coming up with stronger support for a story that was weakly presented in the first place.
11.30.2006 11:27am
TallDave (mail) (www):
The AP demonstrates that their source was in fact legitimate

Uh, most emphatically NO THEY DIDN'T! They have demonstrated nothing. They just repeated their claims re "Jamil," which were conclusively debunked by the MOI today.

So they found some more Sunnis, in the midst of sectarian violence, who were also willing to claim they saw something that didn't happen. Not proof, especially not in the middle of a propaganda war.
11.30.2006 11:45am
TallDave (mail) (www):
Oh, and the whole problem to begin with was that the "AP reporters" are insurgent stringers. So it's pretty laughable to send the same stringers back to "prove" a story they made up.
11.30.2006 11:47am
TallDave (mail) (www):
I mean really Aziz, did you even read the story? When the Ministry of the Interior says your police captain is not a police captain, and the military says they investigated and found not 6 burned Sunnis and 4 burned mosques but one molotov cocktail that burned a carpet and was then put out, simply repeating the claim about Jamil and finding some local Sunnis who probably saw the story on the news isn't exactly "proof."

Where are the men who were burned? What were their names? What hospital were they treated at? Can we find this Jamil guy and put him in front of a camera? Bet they never turn up answers to those.

The insurgents read the memoirs of Giap, who took Lenin's advice about "certain useful idiots in the West" to heart and turned a militarily unwinnable conflict in Vietnam into victory through propaganda. The press is playing their game, wittingly or not.
11.30.2006 11:52am
Bill from INDC (mail) (www):

This whole affair speaks to a larger issue of "news out of Iraq". The belief seems to be that if the general public is shielded from bad news, or that bad news is minimized, or even outright denied, then that will maintain support for the war, or at least counteract the increasing lack of support.

This systematic campaign to delegitimize the media has backfired.


I call bullshit Aziz. In addition to what TallDave said, delegitimizing the media is not just some attempt to whitewash what is going on in Iraq; few if any rw bloggers would be surprised if individuals HAD been killed violently as the reports mentioned.

It's relevant in its purpose of holding the media accountable. This is a disparate issue from any political spin you are attaching as the overriding intent of blog fact checking.
11.30.2006 11:53am
Dean Esmay:
I've always sought to delegitimize the media for precisely what John Burgess said:

"The complaint about the MSM hasn't been that they report negative news. It's been that they only report negative news. "

I've never wanted them to hide any information. I've wanted them to stop hiding so much.
11.30.2006 12:02pm
Scott Kirwin (mail) (www):
Aziz
I second Bill's call "Bullshit".


And we need to celebrate the media for its role in keeping the pressure on.


What you call "keeping the pressure on" I call acting on behalf of our - Iraqi and American - enemies. The MSM question everything reported by the coalition military - but give a free pass to the insurgents.

Our enemies aren't stupid; however the mainstream media just can't seem to fathom that it is possible for them to be used as a tool by the jihadists/insurgents. It's this bias, this blatant ignorance, that drives those of us on the Right absolutely nuts.
11.30.2006 12:08pm
Scott Kirwin (mail) (www):
I pressed submit too soon.

Aziz, I think it boils down to this fact:

A reporter can say anything he wants about Bush, the US forces, or the United States without fear of any type of retribution beyond having Tony Snow glare at him at the next press conference.

Question a jihadi's motives, or the fact that al-Qaeda has killed more Muslims than Christians or Jews and a reporter risks starring in the next jihadi edition of the movie "Saw".

It's fear. Journalists are afraid of their subjects and as a consequence exhibit a little "Stockholm Syndrome" in their reporting.
11.30.2006 12:14pm
Dishman (mail):
AP's follow-up "contacts" with "Capt. Hussein" are every bit as worthless as the originals if there is no such person in the MOI or Police.

They contacted a liar, and he repeated his story. How is that evidence?
11.30.2006 12:28pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
Its easy to pick on the media, but Dave's assertion that "They just repeated their claims re "Jamil," which were conclusively debunked by the MOI today. " has no citation. The AP actually went out and found more witnesses. So the only bullshit here is the assertion that the AP is somehow at fault for providing a factual report of a witnessed event. Dave you really flaunt your hackitude here:

So they found some more Sunnis, in the midst of sectarian violence, who were also willing to claim they saw something that didn't happen. Not proof, especially not in the middle of a propaganda war.

IDIOT! the AP story was about the murder OF SHIA BY SUNNIS. Do you understand? I'm not spelling it out for you further.

Dean, John and I are on the same page. And he's describing a perception, not a fact. It's demonstrobly not true that there is no good news out of Iraq by the mainstream media. I listen to NPR every single day and I have heard story upon story of good news. There are tales of hope, heroism, and sacrifice on the radio, in print, and on television. The military is routinely interviewed for their perspective. And that's just teh radio - there are examples aplenty in the print media. I see it daily in the Houston Chron, I saw it in the Tribune when I went home to Chicago, I see it in teh WaPo and yes even teh New York Times. My challenge to you Dean is to go out and verify for yourself that there truly is, literally, NO good news about Iraq in the MSM.

Note, Dean, I did not say "go find stories that the MSM shoudl have reported but didn't". Frankly, the MSM shouldnt report every tale on a milblog, because the MSM shoudl be constrined by rules of reporting, sourcing, editing, etc. The milblogs give part of teh picture, but the actual journalists give you another, and neither is less valid. You're asserting that John's statement above - said in irony - that the MSM reports "no" good news, is accurate. I've al;ready disproved it with my links to NPR above but you will easily find more.

And the point here is that the ratio of good/bad news is irrelevant. Public opinion on the war has soured not because the media's ratio of good/bad is out of whack. And teh key to restoring public opinion is to give the public the full facts, raw honesty, and a determination to change course.

Bill, I am *all for* blog fact checking. But the critique on the AP is NOYT fact checking. Its an attempt by the military to deny the story, and then the AP responded with more witnesses, and more details. So the facts have been checked. Its done. Its real. Where's your beef?
11.30.2006 12:32pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
A reporter can say anything he wants about Bush, the US forces, or the United States without fear of any type of retribution beyond having Tony Snow glare at him at the next press conference.

of course, this is total bogosity. Youre confusing pundits with journalists. Or maybe you're confusing bloggers with journalists. As I have made it clear above - the AP's source was challenged, so they went out and found MORE sources. If you deny the story now youre just in.. well.. denial.
11.30.2006 12:34pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
They contacted a liar, and he repeated his story. How is that evidence?

what fun is it to actually read a blog post when you can unthinkingly pile on in ignorance instead? whee!

except, of course, your description of the first source as a liar is unfounded. And that the AP contacted additional sources who were SUNNI. Does the relevance of that last fact escape you?
11.30.2006 12:38pm
Thief (mail) (www):
I add my voice: Aziz, I declare Shenanigans.

From the Press Conference given by Brig. Gen. Abdul Kareem Khalaf Al-Kenani, Iraqi Ministry of Interior spokesman (LvMM):


For example, we have some of the respected news outlets that deal with news fast and have a relation with many TV channels and the media in general, who distributed a story quoting a person called Jamil Hussein. Afterward, we searched our sources in our staff for anyone by this name-- maybe he wore an MOI uniform and gave a different name to the reporter for money. And the second name used is Lt. Maythem.

However, all of you know that the ministry of interior has a large public affairs office and its official spokesman, and we are ready to answer any questions you may have. Therefore, you should contact MOI PAO for all your needs to get real, true news. Based on that, we strongly deny any relation with those two names. In order to serve you better and strengthen the relationship with MOI, do not take statements that have no meaning and do not represent any official. We would like this note to be helpful to you and any statement made by those persons to be ignored.


Someone here is lying. And if it ain't the Americans/Iraqis, it's gotta be the AP.

Either they cough up Capt. Jamil for a press conference and have him prove his bona fides, or I will chalk this one up as bald-faced enemy propaganda.
11.30.2006 12:41pm
Photon Courier (mail):
I would be more inclined to give AP the benefit of the doubt were it not for the systematic anti-Israel bias that is apparent in many of its stories. One example, out of many, here
11.30.2006 12:45pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
Thief, since the AP found additional Sunni sources to corroborate, the issue of Capt Jamail is rather moot. But with regards to captain jamail, I dont think that we shoudl be trusting the denials of a government that practices censorship of the free media.
11.30.2006 12:54pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
As the AP pointed out, the original source as "He is an officer at the police station in Yarmouk, with a record of reliability and truthfulness. His full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein"

The MOI however says that "we searched our sources in our staff for anyone by this name" - but omitted the middle name, and the source is from the Yarmouk station.

What I find more telling is this:


However, all of you know that the ministry of interior has a large public affairs office and its official spokesman, and we are ready to answer any questions you may have.


in other words, the MOI would rather that journlaists rpeort only what the MOI PR office tells tem rather than interview the officers in the field. And that's pretty telling indeed.
11.30.2006 12:58pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
And incidentally, with regards to the OTHER source and witness to the attack besides Jamail in the AP's original story:


The Iraqi Defense Ministry later said that al-Hashimi, the Sunni elder in Hurriyah, had recanted his account of the attack after being visited by a representative of the defense minister.


I'll bet he recanted right quick.
11.30.2006 1:01pm
Dishman (mail):
since the AP found additional Sunni sources to corroborate, the issue of Capt Jamail is rather moot

Paraphrased: We previously reported that our trusted source, Bilbo Baggins, saw Aziz Poonwalla consorting with a succubus. The fact that Bilbo Baggins doesn't exist is irrelevant, because we made up found two new witnessess, who will remain nameless.
11.30.2006 1:06pm
Scott Kirwin (mail) (www):

I dont think that we shoudl be trusting the denials of a government that practices censorship of the free media.



And I don't think you should be trusting the assertions of a liar. Al-Qaeda, the Baathists, and the Mahdi Army aren't exactly champions of free speech.
11.30.2006 1:08pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
Al-Qaeda, the Baathists, and the Mahdi Army aren't exactly champions of free speech.

Youre not even trying. The AP found additional sources, a bookshop owner, a neighborhood grocery owner, and a physician.
11.30.2006 1:15pm
Bryan Costin (mail) (www):
Maybe you're willing to take the AP at it's word, Aziz, but please don't call people names for demanding a higher standard. Look, I'll even grant that the AP may believe that they're telling the truth. That doesn't matter. If they've really been gullible, dumb, and unprofessional enough to be taken in by a stringer mole and his fake sources for so long then their judgment in this matter is highly suspect. I'm not just going to accuse the military of a coverup purely on their say-so.

The MOI has now flatly stated that this incident did not happen as reported, and that AP's alleged source is either fake or lying. IMHO, what is now required of the AP are real sources who can stand up and be named, real reporters who can be interviewed and cross-questioned, and real evidence that this actually happened they way their highly questionable source claims it happened. Not anonymous reporters allegedly interviewing some handy anonymous witnesses who may or may not actually exist. The AP's lame follow-up is even less credible and harder to verify than the original "Capt. Jamil Hussein" source, who at least had a name and a title. How can this be considered a credible or persuasive response?
11.30.2006 1:18pm
Bill from INDC (mail) (www):

Bill, I am *all for* blog fact checking. But the critique on the AP is NOYT fact checking. Its an attempt by the military to deny the story, and then the AP responded with more witnesses, and more details. So the facts have been checked. Its done. Its real. Where's your beef?


This is not quite a legit binary assessment yet (ie, AP Provided more sources, they win). The proclamations by the original source have been called into question by other sources (provided by both the Iraqi govt, CENTCOM and a NY Times story), and the original source's status as a police captain has been officially tanked.

So where's your beef? Shrug.

I simply don't buy the idea that anyone is trying to whitewash Iraq. Shrug.
11.30.2006 1:36pm
Tom Hawkson:
I don't trust the AP. They don't put out a trustworthy product. Let the AP fix their product. Coca-Cola eventually brought back Coke Classic. Ford, GM, Chrysler and AMC eventually starting making compact cars instead of gas guzzlers. I'm the customer, and I'm always right. The AP should admit thier flaws acknowledge their biases, and address them.

Yours,
Wince
11.30.2006 1:36pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
IDIOT! the AP story was about the murder OF SHIA BY SUNNIS. Do you understand? I'm not spelling it out for you further.

Sigh. You really didn't read the story, did you? From your own link:

The Associated Press is standing by its report that six Sunni men were burned to death in Baghdad Friday by Shiites,

Before you start calling me names, maybe you should try to have some idea what you're talking so you can avoid embarassing yourself.
11.30.2006 1:44pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
Its easy to pick on the media, but Dave's assertion that "They just repeated their claims re "Jamil," which were conclusively debunked by the MOI today. " has no citation.

Uh, hello? I did a whole post on it yesterday. The link is right at the bottom of your post.

And you calling me a hack and an idiot is pretty ironic considering how mistaken on the facts you seem to be. This isn't DKos; you can't just troll-rate or namecall inconvenient facts out of existence.
11.30.2006 2:01pm
Dishman (mail):
Before you start calling me names, maybe you should try to have some idea what you're talking so you can avoid embarassing yourself.

I no longer believe that Aziz is capable of expressing embarassment.
11.30.2006 2:05pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
The AP found additional sources, a bookshop owner, a neighborhood grocery owner, and a physician.

OK first off, WHO from the AP? The whole problem is that they're relying on Iraqi stringers who are working for insurgents. Did they go back nd ask the same stringer? Why couldn't he just make these people up?

And even if that follow-up isn't as imaginary as Jamil, I can find millions of people who say they were at Woodstock in 1969. And they aren't incentivized to lie by being in the middle of a sectarian struggle.
11.30.2006 2:06pm
Thief (mail) (www):
Aziz, I think Dishman already handled what I was going to say. Retracting one source by omission and then substituting two more just raises more suspicions.

I think I'll just throw this in:

Psychological operations (PSYOP) are planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence the emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments, organizations, groups, and individuals...By lowering adversary morale and reducing their efficiency, PSYOP can also discourage aggressive actions and create dissidence and disaffection within their ranks, ultimately inducing surrender.

I think we're all being played for suckers.
11.30.2006 2:08pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
Apropos of Thief, let me add this.

The Soviets had an entire “active measures” department devoted to churning out anti-American dezinformatsiya. A classic example is the rumor that AIDS was the result of research aimed at building a ‘race bomb’ that would selectively kill black people.
...
The Soviets consciously followed the Gramscian prescription; they pursued a war of position, subverting the “leading elements” of society through their agents of influence. (See, for example, Stephen Koch’s Double Lives: Stalin, Willi Munzenberg and the Seduction of the Intellectuals; summary by Koch here) This worked exactly as expected; their memes seeped into Western popular culture and are repeated endlessly in (for example) the products of Hollywood.


The enemies of freedom have been doing this for a century. How can the free press still claim ignorance of attempts to subvert them?
11.30.2006 2:13pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
OK, Dave, Bill. Suppose you have free reign to dictate to the AP the bounds of coverage. What are the parameters that are acceptable to you? I'm curious to see what you have in mind.
11.30.2006 2:27pm
Dishman (mail):
Dictate? No.

Just verbally abuse their apologists, and get the word out that they are lying.

The market will take care of the rest.
11.30.2006 2:30pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
I would settle for their not reporting insurgent propaganda as fact.

Oh, and not then calling our military "ludicrous" when they point out they have not only been quoting a nonexistent police captain for months but seem to have exaggerated a single molotov and burned carpet into four firebombed mosques and six Sunnis burned alive.

Are those expectations too high?

I mean really. Does the AP take ANY steps to ensure their stringers aren't just propagandists? Ten to one says they do little or nothing.
11.30.2006 2:33pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
Oh, and as long as I'm Supreme Dictator of the Press, instead of the "burning Sunnis" story this MOI press release would be the headline:

The third subject is, this week the strikes we made against the al-Qaeda terrorist organization in Baghdad were many and very strong in Baghdad. Before my arrival to this press conference, I was informed that one of the three who were just captured or detained is Mazer Al-Jubouri, aka the Baghdad Sniper, and his group. He admitted many things that are very important and very dangerous and our forces used this information about his network and conducted raids in the past 24 hours and detained 30 terrorists.
11.30.2006 2:40pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Being nit-picky, but:

civil war: A war between factions of the same country; there are five criteria for international recognition of this status: the contestants must control territory, have a functioning government, enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed forces, and engage in major military operations.

That is the international definition of 'Civil War.' Some of those criteria are met. Some are not.

Secondarily, the AP has failed to be honest or even rudimentarily cautious about the quality of news from their Iraq sources. They are just following the standard 'if it bleeds it leads' mentality, but the problem is the arab world seems to have some creative people who make up alot of news, and the AP are biting it as fact. Source up this Cap'n and lets see some proof that he is who he says he is, or else everything else he has to say is suspect.
11.30.2006 3:14pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
Dave,

first off: *I* am the idiot. I apologize for calling you one; I had the facts of the case backwards. Apologies to Dishman above as well.

Now,


I would settle for their not reporting insurgent propaganda as fact.


But you label everything that is "negative" as insurgent propaganda. So: who decides what is propaganda?

further why do you label as propaganda (with teh attendant value judgement) everything the media - which is edited, does follow rules of sourced reporting, does have people in the field risking their lives, etc - but accept at total face value the prononouncements of government ministers?


Oh, and not then calling our military "ludicrous" when they point out they have not only been quoting a nonexistent police captain for months but seem to have exaggerated a single molotov and burned carpet into four firebombed mosques and six Sunnis burned alive.


thats largely irrelevant to the issue. However the AP does claim to have evidence of teh burned mosques and even teh name of one of the victims.

Why are you so invested in denying such a act is possible? Or even probable?


I mean really. Does the AP take ANY steps to ensure their stringers aren't just propagandists? Ten to one says they do little or nothing.


And how would you know what they do? What steps would you have them take? What level of proof would satisfy you?

as for the Baghdad Sniper, since the US military initially dnied he even exists, let's wait for actual confirmation before celebrating. The media will report once the facts are confirmed. Thats the whole point of the media.
11.30.2006 3:27pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
But you label everything that is "negative" as insurgent propaganda.

LOL No I label things made up by insurgents as insurgent propaganda.

However the AP does claim to have evidence of teh burned mosques and even teh name of one of the victims.

In fact they do not list any such proof.

Why are you so invested in denying such a act is possible? Or even probable?

LOL I certainly don't deny its possible. Why are you so invested in claiming it did happen?

And how would you know what they do?

Clearly they aren't doing enough

What steps would you have them take? What level of proof would satisfy you?

ANY level of actual proof (photos, video, official witnesses) would be sufficient. They've provided none in this case. We just get "so-and-so, who is Sunni, says this happened to Sunnis."

The press needs to remember there are insurgent propagandists out there trying to sell agitprop and be on guard for it.
11.30.2006 4:00pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Here are some more references to Capt Hussein. Seems to be the star AP source all over baghdad. Mansur is westerly, Dora is southern, I'll keep digging. At any rate, he's been around for a while.


link
April 24 AP &APF &By Nelson Hernandez and Saad al-Izzi
At 2:30 p.m., a car bomb targeting a police patrol in the Mansur area of Baghdad
wounded three policemen and four civilians, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.

Link
May 8, 2006 6:38 am US/Central
In western Baghdad, suspected insurgents stopped a bus carrying Higher Education Ministry employees to work, fatally shooting the driver and wounding a policeman who was working on the bus as a guard, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.

Link
July 10, 2006 5:26 AM
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Gunmen ambushed a bus in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood in Baghdad on Monday, killing seven people, police said. The gunmen killed all six passengers, including a woman, and the driver before setting the bus on fire in the Amariyah neighborhood of western Baghdad, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

BAGHDAD, Iraq Jun 10, 2006 (ABCnews/AP)
For example, I notice today, that MSCNBC reports that "A roadside bomb targeting a police patrol exploded in an outdoor market in Baghdad on Saturday, killing four people and wounding 27, police said" and that further "Gunmen in two cars also shot to death a Shiite metal worker and wounded two others in their shop in western Baghdad, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said". In addition "A mortar landed on a house elsewhere in the capital, seriously wounding a 50-year-old woman and a 2-year-old girl, Lt. Maitham Abdul Razzaq said.

Link
23 June 2006
Nine days into the security crackdown on Baghdad that includes hundreds of checkpoints and an expanded curfew, the capital was relatively quiet. Police reported only two deaths related to insurgent or sectarian attacks.
The victims died when a bomb strapped to a motorcycle exploded in a market. At least 25 people were wounded, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

Link
September 19, 2006 NOOR KHAN, Associated Press Writer & By ELENA BECATOROS, Associated Press Writer &AFP &September 20, 2006 ASSOCIATED PRESS &Reuters &Santa Barbara News-Press
Another five police were wounded in the attack in the southern Baghdad neighborhood of Dora, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
11.30.2006 4:00pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
The media will report once the facts are confirmed. Thats the whole point of the media.

Oh please, you know very well this will never make a headline. At most it will be mentioned way in the back.
11.30.2006 4:02pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
Buddy's post really drives the point home.

They've been quoting this guy for months!

How much due diligence would it take to simply confirm he is who he says he is?
11.30.2006 4:03pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
However the AP does claim to have evidence of teh burned mosques and even teh name of one of the victims: In fact they do not list any such proof.

To elucidate: form their account it sounds like they have one photo of one burned area in the front of one mosque. But that supports the military/ISF version: one molotov that burned a rug in one mosque.
11.30.2006 4:05pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Another one, from Southern Baghdad, May 27, 2006

http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=12484

Gunmen in three speeding cars also ambushed a patrol in western Baghdad, wounding 10 people, including six policemen, and two other policemen were injured in drive-by shootings in a nearby neighbourhood, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.


P.S., alot of the other names being quoted in these stories are on the CentCom redlist for 'suspected fake officials' :
http://floppingaces2.blogspot.com/


Below is an incomplete list of MOI spokesmen we are tracking since the middle of November and trying to verify.

Very respectfully,

LT Dean

MOI/IP spokesman (mostly AP)

* police Lt. Ali Abbas said.
* police Capt. Mohammed Abdel-Ghani.
* Police Brigadier Sarhat Abdul-Qadir
* Mosul police Director Gen. Wathiq al-Hamdani police Lt. Bilal Ali.
* Ali al-Obaidi, a medic at Ramadi Hospital, police Maj. Firas Gaiti said.
* Police Captain Mohammed Ismail
* Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, the Interior Ministry spokesman (a.k.a. Police Brigadier Abd al-Karim Khalaf, Brig. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, Brig. Abdel-Karim Khalaf)
* Mohammed Khayon, a Baghdad police lieutenant
* police spokesman Mohammed Kheyoun. (a.k.a. Police Lieutenant Mohammed Khayoun)
* Lt. Thaer Mahmoud, head of a police section responsible for releasing daily death tolls
* police Lt. Bilal Ali Majid said
* police Lt. Ali Muhsin.
* police 1st. Lt. Mutaz Salahhidine. (a.k.a. Lieutenant Mutaz Salaheddin)
* Col. Abbas Mohammed Salman policeman Haider Satar


Here is more info, and another list of Hussien related reports:

http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1543
11.30.2006 4:19pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
I for one don't see anything suspicious about a good source being named for months. And just being on Lt Dean's list doesnt mean they are automatically fakes, though some of them might well be.

Though Im in agreement, it would be bettr for teh AP to produce Jamail. But what about the second witness, who changed his story after a "visit" by some govt officials? And what about the three additional witnesses? On what basis do we dismiss them as propagandists?
11.30.2006 4:52pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
On what basis do we dismiss them as propagandists?

Ummm, because the U.S. military and ISF investigated and found no evidence it happened?

Also, we only have the AP's word that those other witnesses actually exist. And if they do exist, they may be under pressure from Sunni insurgents to lie, or simply not like Shias and lie for that reason.

There is a total lack of physical evidence to support their claims.
11.30.2006 5:13pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
I for one don't see anything suspicious about a good source being named for months.


Sigh. The point isn't that he was named for months. The point is he was named for months and DOES NOT EXIST!!
11.30.2006 5:13pm
Aziz (mail) (www):
The point is he was named for months and DOES NOT EXIST!!

the latter part is under dispute, Dave. But even if he doesnt exist, there are other independent witnesses, so its moot. see my reply to Dave Justus' comment in eth other thread. I'll stop in this thread now and focus on that one.
11.30.2006 5:28pm
TallDave (mail) (www):
the latter part is under dispute, Dave.

You mean the AP keeps claiming he exists despite the people he works for saying he doesn't. Well, they have to produce some evidence other than "we say so" before I'll consider it much of a "dispute."

But even if he doesnt exist, there are other independent witnesses, so its moot

It's NOT moot. It's a big problem. The AP has been allegedly relying on the guy for months. If he's fake, that makes it far more likely the story is fake, along with lots of others.

The other witnesses could just be sympathetic Sunnis who are describing what they saw on the news. The NYT has reported some witnesses claimed it did NOT happen.
11.30.2006 7:24pm
Tom Blumer (mail) (www):
Jeez, Dean, they have admitted they don't have the names of the other 5 vics. How is that remotely possible, or credible?
11.30.2006 10:33pm