Mmmm. Can't work up too much outrage as I am just as guilty at poking fun at the incident. I won't link to my blog entry doing so, but I made a graphic of a t-shirt that's only slightly more tasteful.
It's dark humor. We laugh at other people's expense all the time. I loved Irwin. Loved watching him. But this was something that was bound to happen.
Tastless? Yeah, a little. But Maher has many other traits I find much more disgusting than this.
Maybe I'm more upset than you because I actully felt regret when I heard he died. He seemed like a wonderful man and was loved the world over. I was a fan and I felt for his family.
I wonder how funny they think this is? What did they do to deserve something like this?
It's lame because South Park already did it. Either he's so lame that he is copying SP, or he is so lame that he is unaware of SP. Either way, he's a douche.
Andrew: No, he didn't praise them, he just defended them.
"We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That’s cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it’s not cowardly."
And unfortunately, a lot of people do take this painfully unfunny, nasty jackass seriously.
Maybe that's why Bill Maher is now on HBO instead of ABC, albeit late at night. I've never taken him seriously although there were moments he was funny -- in the early days of his show.
I was also shocked and saddened by Irwin's death, but I must confess that I totally cracked up when he did that Fed Ex commercial with the snake bite. At that time, I thought how appropriate. Dark humor, indeed, I suppose, but I certainly didn't seriously wish him dead. I just found his style a bit obnoxious.
That being said, he did a lot to make the animal world interesting to kids -- who loved him. And he will be sorely missed.
Dean: in this particular case, I think he had a point.
There are all sorts of terrible names we can justifiably call the people who flew the planes into the world trade center. "Cowardly" is not one of them; the willingness to die for one's beliefs is not a characteristic I usually associate with cowards.
Murderous lying self-centered immoral bastards, I can buy; but calling them cowards, I think, requires that the term be redefined.
I'm sorry but you just don't compliment your enemy. Maybe that's something soldiers and generals write about long after the battles and campaigns have passed but to do so now, when so many like Bill Maher are quick to criticize our own soldiers, feels traitorous.
Robert, I'm sure there are ten or 15 threads in the Dean's World archives on this topic, but here's my response to your "cowardly" point:
1. Doing what the 9/11 hijackers did was a demonstration of physical courage.
2. Physical courage is inseparable from moral courage.
3. Notwithstanding (2), the moral courage displayed here is seriously deficient because, once the virtual certainty of death is admitted (and this is no small thing), the situation calling for bravery involved (a) murder of defenseless, unarmed civilians (b) given no warning of the initiation of hostility and (c) relying on the theretofore valid moral contract that cooperation with hijackers is far more likely than not to result in a mainly positive outcome for the victims. It took no bravery to exploit that point so fatally; in fact, it was cowardice to do so.
Thus the "cowardice" referred to here is no different from the "dastardliness" referred to by FDR in referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Yes, flying in a Zero requires bravery; but it requires far more to declare war and then attack.
Incidentally, the suggestion that there is no risk to pilots operating aircraft in a theater of war is also pretty offensive to those with an inkling of historical knowledge.
In South Park, within the context of everything else they've done, and the other people they've shown as being in Hell, etc., showing Steve Irwin there was more of a tribute than an insult.
With Bill Maher, it feels like an insult. Like he's making fun. I think Bill is a smart guy, but he has this smug attitude that really gets under my skin, even on the rare occasions that I agree with him.
the willingness to die for one's beliefs is not a characteristic I usually associate with cowards.
I've never understood why we're supposed to be impressed by this. The Columbine killers were willing to die for their beliefs. The average worker who goes postal is willing to die for his/her beliefs. Most spousal homicide/suicide killers are willing to die for their beliefs. The pedophile who murdered the Amish schoolgirls was willing to die for something he believed in.
No one is impressed by this, no one makes a point of saying that they're not cowards. Most people are glad to know they're dead. Most would prefer that these cowards die before they get a chance to take anyone with them.
"Physical courage is inseparable from moral courage."
Huh? Are you saying that is what the hijackers thought, or is it what you think? Because from my knothole on the world, it certainly isn't true. I've known lots of people with plenty of physical courage, but they were/are moral midgets with little-to-no moral courage at all (e.g. way too many professional athletes). I don't think that physical courage has anything whatsoever to do with moral courage. Hopefully, those with moral courage have enough physical courage to stand up for their beliefs in the face of physical threats, but even if they don't, that doesn't *necessarily* mean that they don't have moral courage (assuming that "moral courage" means having the courage to resist temptation, to speak up for and do what is right, to take unpopular positions when it is called for, and so on).
So, I'm not sure what you meant by that statement. Can you clarify?
I'm sorry but you just don't compliment your enemy.
There is a difference between a compliment, and recognizing a misinterpretation of an enemies actions or motivations or willingness to sacrifice in order to succeed.
You may not like them, you wish them resoundly defeated, but don't ignore what the do well. It will get a lot of people killed.
At the same time, I don't think Maher was complimenting the Terrorist so much as slamming the US...i.e., we didn't have the guts to do what we thought needed to be done. That we fight like chicken hawks, rather than men. That is what really pissed me off about him.
the willingness to die for one's beliefs is not a characteristic I usually associate with cowards.
I've never understood why we're supposed to be impressed by this.
We're not. Its just a definition. Its just your social conditioning kicking in, that makes you want to admire bravery and despise cowardice. Taken in context, its easy to see that brave people can be quite worthy of contempt.
Ronald: it seems to me that you are conflating "immoral" with "cowardly"; in my mind, they are distinct concepts, and it is possible to engage in an immoral courageous act. "Dastardly" as a word describing the 9/11 hijackers I would accept, as it does not carry with it the connotation of a lack of courage.
Maryatexitzero: I'm not saying that we should be impressed by it; i'm just saying it's inaccurate to describe it as cowardice. I would add that nobody is saying that the people you describe aren't cowards because nobody is running around calling them cowards. :)
It's dark humor. We laugh at other people's expense all the time. I loved Irwin. Loved watching him. But this was something that was bound to happen.
Tastless? Yeah, a little. But Maher has many other traits I find much more disgusting than this.
I wonder how funny they think this is? What did they do to deserve something like this?
I still think Bill Maher's costume is pretty funny though, and I dislike a lot about Bill Maher.
"We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That’s cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it’s not cowardly."
And unfortunately, a lot of people do take this painfully unfunny, nasty jackass seriously.
I was also shocked and saddened by Irwin's death, but I must confess that I totally cracked up when he did that Fed Ex commercial with the snake bite. At that time, I thought how appropriate. Dark humor, indeed, I suppose, but I certainly didn't seriously wish him dead. I just found his style a bit obnoxious.
That being said, he did a lot to make the animal world interesting to kids -- who loved him. And he will be sorely missed.
There are all sorts of terrible names we can justifiably call the people who flew the planes into the world trade center. "Cowardly" is not one of them; the willingness to die for one's beliefs is not a characteristic I usually associate with cowards.
Murderous lying self-centered immoral bastards, I can buy; but calling them cowards, I think, requires that the term be redefined.
I'm sorry but you just don't compliment your enemy. Maybe that's something soldiers and generals write about long after the battles and campaigns have passed but to do so now, when so many like Bill Maher are quick to criticize our own soldiers, feels traitorous.
1. Doing what the 9/11 hijackers did was a demonstration of physical courage.
2. Physical courage is inseparable from moral courage.
3. Notwithstanding (2), the moral courage displayed here is seriously deficient because, once the virtual certainty of death is admitted (and this is no small thing), the situation calling for bravery involved (a) murder of defenseless, unarmed civilians (b) given no warning of the initiation of hostility and (c) relying on the theretofore valid moral contract that cooperation with hijackers is far more likely than not to result in a mainly positive outcome for the victims. It took no bravery to exploit that point so fatally; in fact, it was cowardice to do so.
Thus the "cowardice" referred to here is no different from the "dastardliness" referred to by FDR in referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Yes, flying in a Zero requires bravery; but it requires far more to declare war and then attack.
Incidentally, the suggestion that there is no risk to pilots operating aircraft in a theater of war is also pretty offensive to those with an inkling of historical knowledge.
In South Park, within the context of everything else they've done, and the other people they've shown as being in Hell, etc., showing Steve Irwin there was more of a tribute than an insult.
With Bill Maher, it feels like an insult. Like he's making fun. I think Bill is a smart guy, but he has this smug attitude that really gets under my skin, even on the rare occasions that I agree with him.
I've never understood why we're supposed to be impressed by this. The Columbine killers were willing to die for their beliefs. The average worker who goes postal is willing to die for his/her beliefs. Most spousal homicide/suicide killers are willing to die for their beliefs. The pedophile who murdered the Amish schoolgirls was willing to die for something he believed in.
No one is impressed by this, no one makes a point of saying that they're not cowards. Most people are glad to know they're dead. Most would prefer that these cowards die before they get a chance to take anyone with them.
I don't get this statement at all:
"Physical courage is inseparable from moral courage."
Huh? Are you saying that is what the hijackers thought, or is it what you think? Because from my knothole on the world, it certainly isn't true. I've known lots of people with plenty of physical courage, but they were/are moral midgets with little-to-no moral courage at all (e.g. way too many professional athletes). I don't think that physical courage has anything whatsoever to do with moral courage. Hopefully, those with moral courage have enough physical courage to stand up for their beliefs in the face of physical threats, but even if they don't, that doesn't *necessarily* mean that they don't have moral courage (assuming that "moral courage" means having the courage to resist temptation, to speak up for and do what is right, to take unpopular positions when it is called for, and so on).
So, I'm not sure what you meant by that statement. Can you clarify?
There is a difference between a compliment, and recognizing a misinterpretation of an enemies actions or motivations or willingness to sacrifice in order to succeed.
You may not like them, you wish them resoundly defeated, but don't ignore what the do well. It will get a lot of people killed.
At the same time, I don't think Maher was complimenting the Terrorist so much as slamming the US...i.e., we didn't have the guts to do what we thought needed to be done. That we fight like chicken hawks, rather than men. That is what really pissed me off about him.
I've never understood why we're supposed to be impressed by this.
We're not. Its just a definition. Its just your social conditioning kicking in, that makes you want to admire bravery and despise cowardice. Taken in context, its easy to see that brave people can be quite worthy of contempt.
Maryatexitzero: I'm not saying that we should be impressed by it; i'm just saying it's inaccurate to describe it as cowardice. I would add that nobody is saying that the people you describe aren't cowards because nobody is running around calling them cowards. :)