One problem I had with the film was the way it showed America's government to be subordinate to the oil companies. I considered that to be pure fiction and it made the film a bit hard to believe. If anything, the oil companies are subordinate to our government. The idea that some oil company executives can decide on military targets is just pure BS.
George Clooney is a great actor, but I completely ignore the political opinions of Hollywood actors.
But DO rent the film, it is still good entertainment.
If only oil could be made obsolete. If only we could make diesel from algae on a large scale, for about $3.25 a gallon. Then we could partly nationalize our energy sector, and force the algae diesel to be purchased, thus dropping demand for oil, thus dropping the price for oil, thus destroying the economy of Iran and Saudi Arabia, which are 2 countries I'd like to see go back to the stone age.
If that's the angle you are interested in seeing, watch 'Paradise Now.' Paradise was also called Leftist tripe, but I didn't think it was. It was more telling of what 'martyrs' are doing to their own families and the larger figureheads manipulating normal people.
I am compelled by the facts to say to you that Mr. Edward R. Murrow, as far back as twenty years ago, was engaged in propaganda for Communist causes. For example, the Institute of International Education, of which he was the acting director, was chosen to act as a representative by a Soviet agency to do a job which would normally be done by the Russian secret police. Mr. Murrow sponsored a Communist school in Moscow. In the selection of American students and teachers who were to attend, Mr. Murrow's organization acted for the Russian espionage and propaganda organization known as Voks (V-O-K-S) and many of those selected were later exposed as Communists. Murrow's organization selected such notorious Communists as Isadore Gegun, David Zablodowsky. Incidentally, Zablodowsky was forced out of the United Nations, when my chief counsel presented his case to the grand jury and gave a picture of his Communist activities.
Now, Mr. Murrow, by his own admission, was a member of the IWW. That's the Industrial Workers of the World -- a terrorist organization cited as subversive by an attorney general of the United States, who stated that it was an organization which seeks (and I quote) "to alter the Government of the United States by unconstitutional means." Now, other government committees have had before them actors, screen writers, motion picture producers and others, who admitted Communist affiliations but pleaded youth or ignorance. Now, Mr. Murrow can hardly make the same plea.
On March nine of this year, Mr. Murrow (a trained reporter, who had traveled all over the world, who was the educational director of CBS) followed implicitly the Communist line, as laid down in the last six months, laid down not only by the Communist Daily Worker, but by the Communist magazine Political Affairs and by the National Conference of the Communist Party of the United States of America.
Edward R. Murrow and Sen. Joseph McCarthy
See it Now (CBS-TV, April 6, 1954)
"Senator Joseph R. McCarthy's Reply"
<blockquote>[T]he line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one and the junior senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. … We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason. … (W)e are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent. …</blockquote>
I also find McCarthy himself to be a singularly unconvincing source on which to base a judgement of the man who cost him his job.
I wasn't interested in the movie until I heard that Robert Baer, author of Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold our Soul for Saudi crude had a part in writing the movie.
Baer is an ex-CIA agent who has written some pretty detailed accounts of terrorism's financial infrastructure. He's also one of the few government employees (past or present) who will admit that the KSA is one of the biggest supporters of terrorism worldwide.
Funny how a high profile film can still be a sleeper because the gestalt of the film is so completely different from the hype and/expectations projected onto it. I found Syriana to be a deeply thoughtful and profoundly human film; something as ancient as it was new. And your reflections, Ali.. they kicked my ass.
In much the same way I was caught by Clint Eastwood's new film, Flags of our Fathers, which struck me a being less about WWII and America, and more about the making of men... what we are; where we come from; how we resolve the paradox and dissolve into history. It would be interesting to knoe how that struck you in contrast. Perhaps you could view it and let us know.
It's the nihilism, syndicalism and tyranny we must defeat -- that perpetually returns; a battle which rumbles across every culture in every language, penetrating into every religion to cause it to turn it against itself.
And men and their sons are abandoned by fate to contend with ungodly mess of it. Talk about mortal plight. The question you identified as a Muslim is first a question we must all face as men on behalf of our sons who must follow. Somewhere in this direction lies the peace we seek. Are we not all at war with the worst among us?
Thanks for the review Ali. I'll have to pick that up, despite the America-bashing.
zach:
But more importantly, was what McCarthy said about Murrow true?
I used to be very skeptical of McCarthy. Then I read what Whittaker Chambers went through. The Pumpkin Papers episode really shows just how breathtakingly mendacious and pernicious the Communists in America could be. In light of his revelations and the declassification of Venona, it's increasingly difficult to take their defenses seriosuly.
"(W)e are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent"
starts to sound a lot like
"George W Bush's fascist regime is shredding the Constitution"
i think you're right, it all boils down to: are the accusations true. in the case of GWB shredding the constitution, not so much. but there is no doubt that senator mccarthy, regardless of the ultimate veracity or mendacity of his claims, was trying to insert himself as the thought police. Notice that Murrow is not objecting to McCarthy's aims, since he described himself as an anti-communist, but merely McCarthy's methods.
Gee, Mary, I never would have guessed you'd glom onto that. That Baer was talking through his hat never crossed your mind, I'm sure...
Syriana is actually pretty good, once you subtract the out-of-date crap about oil companies and conspiracies. The scenes on recruiting were, as Ali notes, chilling in their accuracy. There's a lot that's authentic--including Baer's being repudiated by the CIA for going off the reservation--from the scenery to the accents to the general tone of spookdom.
"Paradise Now" is also worth seeing, regardless of what you may have heard about it it from either the left or the right. It tells a very complex story that's worth listening to.
senator mccarthy, regardless of the ultimate veracity or mendacity of his claims, was trying to insert himself as the thought police.
Well, that's the conventional wisdom. But "regardless of the veracity"? There's certainly nothing wrong with accusing people of treason when they're actually guilty of it; that's actually doing great service to America. And remember: McCarthy was only getting people removed from sensitive government positions, not kicking in people's doors in the middle of the night and dragging them off to gulags (which its relevant to note the Soviet patrons of those he pursued were, in fact, doing).
There's certainly nothing wrong with accusing people of treason when they're actually guilty of it; that's actually doing great service to America.
absolutely, but as the relevent wikipedia entry explains, Sen. McCarthy was in the habit of slinging accusations for which he had no actionable evidence. you can say what you like about whether his villification was deserved or undeserved, but saying that he was honestly just doing his job is just untrue.
but i'm not here to attack mccarthy, i'm merely defending murrow.
Speaking of movies that won't get the hype anyone planning to see Mine Your own Business. I have been invited to the European premiere but might just get it on video.
maryatexitstupid
i've worked for the CIA on occasion and Baer is a lying a**hole.
consider, if he was telling the truth, he would have been arrested and prosecuted for violating his oath to protect classified data, which extends beyond the term of employment.
ha ha.
my name is legion.
i have a thousand names, i'm dhatu alwanin, she-of-many-guises. =)
the reason is, i've been banned at dKos and LGF, at althouse and feministe. lol, i must have a name to have a voice.
Edward R. Murrow actually was a communist.
George Clooney is a great actor, but I completely ignore the political opinions of Hollywood actors.
But DO rent the film, it is still good entertainment.
If only oil could be made obsolete. If only we could make diesel from algae on a large scale, for about $3.25 a gallon. Then we could partly nationalize our energy sector, and force the algae diesel to be purchased, thus dropping demand for oil, thus dropping the price for oil, thus destroying the economy of Iran and Saudi Arabia, which are 2 countries I'd like to see go back to the stone age.
that's uh...that's news to me. where'd you hear that?
Here:
Edward R. Murrow and Sen. Joseph McCarthy
See it Now (CBS-TV, April 6, 1954)
"Senator Joseph R. McCarthy's Reply"
to quote Murrow himself:
<blockquote>[T]he line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one and the junior senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. … We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason. … (W)e are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent. …</blockquote>
I also find McCarthy himself to be a singularly unconvincing source on which to base a judgement of the man who cost him his job.
Baer is an ex-CIA agent who has written some pretty detailed accounts of terrorism's financial infrastructure. He's also one of the few government employees (past or present) who will admit that the KSA is one of the biggest supporters of terrorism worldwide.
In much the same way I was caught by Clint Eastwood's new film, Flags of our Fathers, which struck me a being less about WWII and America, and more about the making of men... what we are; where we come from; how we resolve the paradox and dissolve into history. It would be interesting to knoe how that struck you in contrast. Perhaps you could view it and let us know.
It's the nihilism, syndicalism and tyranny we must defeat -- that perpetually returns; a battle which rumbles across every culture in every language, penetrating into every religion to cause it to turn it against itself.
And men and their sons are abandoned by fate to contend with ungodly mess of it. Talk about mortal plight. The question you identified as a Muslim is first a question we must all face as men on behalf of our sons who must follow. Somewhere in this direction lies the peace we seek. Are we not all at war with the worst among us?
zach:
But more importantly, was what McCarthy said about Murrow true?
I used to be very skeptical of McCarthy. Then I read what Whittaker Chambers went through. The Pumpkin Papers episode really shows just how breathtakingly mendacious and pernicious the Communists in America could be. In light of his revelations and the declassification of Venona, it's increasingly difficult to take their defenses seriosuly.
"(W)e are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent"
starts to sound a lot like
"George W Bush's fascist regime is shredding the Constitution"
i think you're right, it all boils down to: are the accusations true. in the case of GWB shredding the constitution, not so much. but there is no doubt that senator mccarthy, regardless of the ultimate veracity or mendacity of his claims, was trying to insert himself as the thought police. Notice that Murrow is not objecting to McCarthy's aims, since he described himself as an anti-communist, but merely McCarthy's methods.
Syriana is actually pretty good, once you subtract the out-of-date crap about oil companies and conspiracies. The scenes on recruiting were, as Ali notes, chilling in their accuracy. There's a lot that's authentic--including Baer's being repudiated by the CIA for going off the reservation--from the scenery to the accents to the general tone of spookdom.
"Paradise Now" is also worth seeing, regardless of what you may have heard about it it from either the left or the right. It tells a very complex story that's worth listening to.
senator mccarthy, regardless of the ultimate veracity or mendacity of his claims, was trying to insert himself as the thought police.
Well, that's the conventional wisdom. But "regardless of the veracity"? There's certainly nothing wrong with accusing people of treason when they're actually guilty of it; that's actually doing great service to America. And remember: McCarthy was only getting people removed from sensitive government positions, not kicking in people's doors in the middle of the night and dragging them off to gulags (which its relevant to note the Soviet patrons of those he pursued were, in fact, doing).
There's certainly nothing wrong with accusing people of treason when they're actually guilty of it; that's actually doing great service to America.
absolutely, but as the relevent wikipedia entry explains, Sen. McCarthy was in the habit of slinging accusations for which he had no actionable evidence. you can say what you like about whether his villification was deserved or undeserved, but saying that he was honestly just doing his job is just untrue.
but i'm not here to attack mccarthy, i'm merely defending murrow.
well, you would say that, wouldn't you.
i've worked for the CIA on occasion and Baer is a lying a**hole.
consider, if he was telling the truth, he would have been arrested and prosecuted for violating his oath to protect classified data, which extends beyond the term of employment.
oh, do tell, matoko/jinnilyyah/River Tam. you're always so honest and so upfront.
By the way, I thought we had rules here about names..
Another reason to see it.
my name is legion.
i have a thousand names, i'm dhatu alwanin, she-of-many-guises. =)
the reason is, i've been banned at dKos and LGF, at althouse and feministe. lol, i must have a name to have a voice.