Cosby Rant
Dean
I get a lot of stuff forwarded to me in email that I assume to be nonsense. And while I've had my issues with them at times, I still find that Snopes is the most reliable source to go to first when you aren't sure about something. They're not always right, but they usually are. So, when I got the below rant in my email, I thought it was probably falsly attributed to Bill Cosby, because it's just a little too extreme-sounding even for him. But nope, they back it up as legit:
They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk: Why you ain't, Where you is, What he drive, Where he stay, Where he work, Who you be... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth. In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.
People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around. The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids. $500 sneakers for what? And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.
I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? And where is the father? Or who is his father?
People putting their clothes on backward: Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong? People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something? Or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles [piercing] going through her body?
What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail.
Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back. People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' — or men or whatever you call them now. We have millionaire football players who cannot read. We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs. We as black folks have to do a better job. Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us. We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.
We cannot blame the white people any longer.
The speech was given in 2004, at the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education.
You know, time was I would have loudly cheered for that. Now I still do cheer, a little, but not quite so loudly. I think he's right that there's not much left that white people can do for black people. In a way I'm glad of that. I'll be turning 40 years old this year, and I know the world is a much better place today in this regard than it was when I was born. But, on the other hand, I grew up pretty hard scrabble, with a lot stacked against me. Left home when I was 15 years old and never went back. Made my own way ever since.
I dunno, an angry rant like that from Cosby, maybe it serves a good purpose within the black community, and to a certain extent it's nobody else's business because it's about things that community has to deal with. But on the flip side of that, African Americans are Americans, and so what happens to them affects all of us.
And I have to say, a lot of the problems of entrenched poverty and poor education are not going to be fixed by kicking around lower class kids who have funny accents or ways of speaking, or yelling at them for doing poorly in schools that don't serve their needs well in the first place.
Something I've often wished most of my black friends would read (to date, none of them have that I know of) is The Redneck Manifesto: How Hillbillies, Hicks, and White Trash Became America's Scapegoats. While I don't always agree with everything in the book, one thing comes through crystal clear : if you look at the problems of poor rural and suburban whites (i.e. "hicks and white trash"), and the problems of poor urban blacks, they're virtually identical, and just as hard to break out of, especially for kids who've never grown up knowing anything different.
Yes, it is true that anyone in this country can succeed if they're smart and they do certain things. But I no longer believe it's as easy as yelling at people about it, or sneering at them.
Of course, I'm not sure of the exact solution. And since I'm one who usually says, "if you haven't got any proposed solutions, stop whining," maybe I should just shut up. But... I just don't think it's that simple. I don't think you can look at a kid who can barely read because he came out of a school that didn't teach him right, a kid who doesn't understand what being a good father means because he's never known one, and say he should just "straighten up and get a work ethic." Not when the only work ethic he's ever seen is demonstrated by hustlers and hookers and hoodlums.
So what's the real fix? Might part of it be that we stop saying these problems are black problems, or minority problems, and instead see them as American problems?
Remember, everyone's responsibility ends up being no one's responsibility.
But "yelling at black people" - IN THIS CONTEXT - is probably a thousand times more helpful than 30 years of apologetics, excuses, social programs, and whitey-blaming.
Have you seen that Arab-American women emasculate those guys on Al Jazeera? Holy spinoli. Well, one could say she's just "yelling at Muslims," but she's doing so, so much more.
She (and Cosby) are jump-starting a necessary part of the conversation in a way that few people can, or dare.
Also, and this is big, they are boosting the courage of those who agree with them, but have been afraid to speak out.
Little steps.
Ronald. Don't you have work to do?
First off I would like to politely applaud Crosby's rant. Although some may view this as a little harsh, isn't it all something that the majority of intellects think and talk about under their breathe. I think there is currently a serious racial gap, if any white individual would say anything half, as vulgar as what Crosby stated, they would be labeled a racist bigot, and very few people take them seriously? But since Crosby is black, he's not a racist bigot, he's just an old rant, that people brush off, instead of actually taking seriously.
So what do we do, better education? Well you busted that myth away with your post a few days ago, that basically said our education system is crap, and everyone should be home schooled. So there enlies the problem. How do we break this vicious cycle or uneducated poverty? I believe that with help from the rest of us, and strong moral autonomy that must comes from the individual to strive for more in life.
Dan Narloch
I'm curious about what they think.
My father's side is pretty much white trash. They've been that way since the mid 19th century when my great-great grandmother made it over from Ireland.
What changed for my dad was meeting my mom - a Bohunk from the South Side. Grandpa, who married a Jewish woman, never forgave my father for marrying a dirty Bohunk. (For those of you who don't know what a Bohunk is, it's a Bohemian. Bohemia is the largest province in the Czech Republic. Why Grandpa was upset about that, I don't know. My guess is that he was never sober enough to understand it himself).
My mother made sure that her children were educated in school AND at home. Now I've developed a mouth like a sailor, but it's not my mother's fault. "Talk like 4th Street! Live on 4th Street!" she'd holler. She wanted all of her children to grow up civilized and well-bred.
Well, sorry mom! Seriously though, all 6 of us lead productive, middle class lives thanks to her. My cousins? It's dueling banjos all the way.
So Cosby is right: Society doesn't educate your kids, you do.
This is only an excerpt of the speech. The whole thing was incredible. The later speech, at the Jesse Jackson event was equally vitriolic.
I should point out that since 2001, computer science and electrical engineering college graduates have had trouble finding jobs.
Remember Sister Souljah?
The problem is not that certain types of thugs dress, talk, behave in certain ways; the problem is that those thugs are being glorified, and identified as the exemplars of "the Black experience".
If I were Cosby, I'd be angry by now myself.
Exactly the opposite. The reason no progress is being made any longer is exactly that it's viewed as an American problem which thus Americans have an obligation to solve.
What's needed is to start seeing these as Black problems, and for black people to take responsibility for solving them. The residual problems Cosby is referring to are not the result of white racism or necessarily even a problem caused by poverty. It's now a cultural problem, a problem of black culture. Cosby's point is that only blacks can fix that part of the problem.
First, The Coz acts like this is new. Guess I'm one of those "ig'nant darkies" because of the way I speak sometimes. Oh you should here me when I'm talking with my "peeps". I'm straight ghetto and proud of it. But when I put on my business/corporate hook-up, I speak the Queen's English so well it will make you slap your mother.
But let's break this stuff down. Finger pointing at the wayward black community is a load of crap. These are American cultural problems. The culture of the poor is the same: dialect differences from mainstream, despair, self-loathing, low self-esteem, financial problems, etc. So don't sit on high and think the "dem black folks" only have the issues. I live in "Downriver". This is a group of cities southwest of Detroit, Michigan along the Detroit River. This area is known for it's "white trash". I work with this "white trash" every damn day (the adults and the children). And what I see and hear sounds like inner city Detroit where those "ghetto black folks" are. It's sobering and elightening. And you know what this "white trash" complain about? Guess? Your smart and you know what. Let's say it's 99.9% similar to those "ghetto black folks". If you need more proof, go watch Country Boys online.
Let's talk about this American problem and why it exists. And Dean, your right. We MUST treat this as an American problem. Yes I'm black. Yes I have some unique experiences in America by being black. But I am American and do American things. This American problem isn't going away with the flippant "work hard and you will succeed philosophy". There are some many hard workin' poor that it is astounding. Yet, they are barely getting by. That needs to be addressed and yelling doesn't do a damn thing.
Personally, I'm sick of "stately negroes" like Bill Cosby talking this smack. Like the Mythical Man is going to get us since some black folks say "who dat be". And to hell with The Cosby Show way of life. There's many white folks that didn't live like that show.
Anyway, Tyrone -- nice to meet you -- I'm with Steve on this, as I stated earlier. There are indeed, as you say, socioeconomic problems across racial lines. But Cosby isn't talking about them. He's talking about his community's problem. There will always be the poor, the stupid, the disadvantaged and the self-destructive, but when an entire identifiable and substantial racial community in our country is suffering from an identifiable phenomenon, members of that community have a problem and need to try to solve it.
Yes, there were loads of Italian, Irish and Jewish gangsters in the 20th centuries, but can you say the Italians, Irish and Jews have the problems of the black underclass today? Hardly, and it's not because they're all mobbed up.
You're not incorrect to say that it's an American problem in the sense that we all suffer from it, but no one suffers more than black America does, and no one -- according to this reasoning -- is in a better position to address it than black America. This is not necessarily an assimilationist point of view. The vibrant, segregated world of prewar Harlem, for all the humiliation blacks suffered prior to the civil rights movement, did not suffer from the degeneration of culture and morals that is present in the underclass Cosby is referring to today. Neither do the followers of separatists such as the Nation of Islam, for all their unfortunate rhetoric; they aspire to great things for America's blacks, and they believe you can look, sound and behave like a mensch getting there.
It's an American problem, but if those most afflicted by it won't even recognize their own role in it -- and by this I don't mean you, Tyrone; you merely slum with your homies just as I can go to 13th Avenue in Boro Park and get ethnic with my own guys, sounding very different from the way I do in front of a federal judge; but we both know this is a game -- if those most afflicted by the problem are mostly concerned with shooting the messenger, we can't solve it. Not together, not separately.
By and large?
Rightly or wrongly, Yes. Being called a racist is a very deep personally wounding insult for many whites. It's usually just easier to avoid discussing race altogether.
Ultimately I come down on the side where poverty and lack of access to education is indeed an American problem. However, like all of America, we are structured by our tribes and ethnicities, and each individual tribe needs to address its own needs as much as the rest of America needs to (because as Dean mentioned, the problems of poverty-stricken black and white communities extends outwards to reach and immpact upon even we safely ensconced middle-class-ites, like Desis).
The big question is why don't we see an endemic problem of inner city violence and "pimp gangsta" cultural decay among poor whites? Simple: 1. there aren't as many since poor whites are more rural than urban, and 2. we actually DO see it anyway, but it doesn't get as much attention.
The ultimate solution is to create role models by which the general attitude of each communnity towards its collective future can be reoriented towards. There's no reason (Bell Curve statistics aside) that black inner-city kids can't be high-scoring school kids like Asians and Desis. Forget the aggregate and focus on the individual.
What was so excellent about teh Cosby show was that it provided the SOLE example on television of a black family that HAD achieved success and escaped the cycle of poverty and built a future for the future generations to build upon. That theme was continued in the underappreciated sequel series Different World which ranks among my most favorite television shows of all time.
So, Tyrone, I think that you are being too defensive and hard on the Coz. All he wants is to say, "it doesn't have to be this way". Theres nothing wrong with pride in your culture - in fact I advocate quite strongly *against* generic assimilation at the expense of your cultural identity.
If you think the family does more to educate a person than "society," you should read, "The Nurture Assumption" by Judith Harris.
A dismayingly persuasive book that argues that families are much less influential in the long term development of individuals than is commonly believed.
Be that as it may, Cosby's point is intact, IMHO. Harris' point is subtle, actually. All members of a "group" contribute to the development of the culture that exhibits strong influence on individuals that identify with that group.
So... Mom and Dad (if there is one) aren't DIRECTLY shaping their children; they (and their children) are shaping the culture that shapes them (and their children).
Kind of an abstract point, I know.
You know what your average skinhead or Neo-Nazi does for a living? If he doesn't pump gas or stock shelves in a store, he runs with a gang of thugs and maybe deals drugs. Yes, yes, you'll find a tiny percentage of them in the middle class, but that's not who most of those kids are.
These are America's Invisible Poor. No one gives a sh** about them, everyone hates them, everyone feels free to dump on them, and they know it. And you know, black ghetto rats are mostly the same: they know people like Cosby despise them, and they despise him back.
I don't know where I'm going with this, but I will note that it used to be that "liberals" were people who cared about these social sequalae, and while they recognized that it disproportionately affected certain groups they didn't automatically ascribe it all to racism, or indeed imply that you are a racist because you believe it. The largest group of poor and underprivileged and uneducated people in the United States are white. That happens to be a fact, but it's astonishing how fast you'll be called a racist in a lot of conversations if you say it.
I will say I totally agree with BK on one thing though: for most middle class and above Americans, being called a racist is the thing they're most afraid of. They really are afraid of it. Although I increasingly think that more of them should locate their spines and be willing to speak their minds even when they get blasted like that (like when that little punk Oliver Willis famously branded me a racist), I also have to admit that ain't always easy, when in corporate America that sort of accusation can lose you your job FAST, and a lot of people are rightly afraid of that.
I also cannot say enough good things about the movie American History X, which a lot of foolish liberals dumped on and a lot of closed-minded conservatives turned their noses up at.
In contrast, the black underclass is much more of a threat to a much larger percentage of the black population in our country as a whole. More disturbingly, they have become largey the cultural voice of the entire black community. That is the problem Cosby was getting at.
I haven't read that book, though I've heard about it (here I think).
All I can say, based on my limited knowledge of it, is: Horsesh*t (sorry mom!).
To me the argument is an abrogation of responsibility: I'm not responsible for my kid - Society is.
Guess what? I am with my kid for the majority of his day. And when I'm not with him, I try to get as much information as I can about what he's doing, who's taking care of him, and what he's thinking.
When he becomes a teen, he's going to be up against a father who remembers very clearly what life was like as a teen, and who did... stupid things. He will need the ACLU to sue me to protect his privacy because as far as I'm concerned, he's not going to have any until he's an adult.
If I find him repeating things he shouldn't, it's up to me to call him on the carpet and challenge him. Recently he's decided it's cool to talk like the black kids at school. That's fine, but he'd better not talk that way around me. More importantly, he'd better know why he shouldn't talk that way.
He is my child, and I'll be damned if I let him float away from me on Society's waves.
As I have mentioned earlier, both of my parents were Black Panthers. They believed. Then left after internal friction. They pointed out to me, when I was growing up, that society's ills can't always be deflected by a good, solid upbringing. Because in a capitalist society, there is always money to be made. And alot of that money will be made at the expense of others. Now let's look at this:
While we black people have our problems, the entertainment industry (controlled by white executives) have made a killing promoting those "gangsta" images. Now they will say that they are giving people what they want. And that's all good. But the fact is, they are also enablers with the power to shape images that we see. Now Scott, look at what you wrote:
Recently he's decided it's cool to talk like the black kids at school. That's fine, but he'd better not talk that way around me. More importantly, he'd better know why he shouldn't talk that way.
The black kids at school... Hmmm. I used to be one of those black kids spouting off Public Enemy lyrics. I remember my parents saying "it's a time and place for everything and you need to know when it's time and where". So your son thinks it's cool. Those black kids think it's cool. So why? Not because poor blacks live it. It's because it is glossed over to appear cool. The glossing over is an American problem. The marketing of "gangstas" to our youth is an American problem. So on and so forth. So while Coz rants and raves about the black communities ills, he doesn't want to address the well-spoken, well-dressed folks that help to peddle filth. Because in every group of the underclassed, there are filth peddlers leeching the life out of them while making that filth seem beautiful. Saying that those poor black parents need to take charge is lovely yet they need help also when they are broke down to. Coz thinks that all we blacks need to do is start kickin' other black folks in the ass with the "straighten up and fly right boot" and things will get better. Nope. America's part of the problem too.
Seems he is. Change. Improvise, adapt, and overcome, or fall by the wayside.
Blaming the marketers for the problem is pointless. What're you going to do, make "filth" illegal? That worked out so well for Prohibition, illegal drugs, prostitution, etc etc.
The solution isn't simple, but it's simply stated. Endorse change. Be a part of the solution.
You don't seem to value Bill Cosby's message because simply because it is nothing new.
Damn right. He paraded around this great nation of ours like he was the vanguard on a new movement. I went to see him in Detroit, Michigan during his "tour". My wife and parents were there. And he acted positively insane on the stage. There was a Q&A session where he gave no answers, only rants. I remember an elderly black woman asked The Coz:
If a black family doesn't have the financial means to leave a bad school district or send their kids to private school, what advice to you have for them?
This man had the nerve to tell her that those parents are losers and have failed their children since they don't have the money to move or go to a private school. Then he said they were probably on welfare. WTF?!? Losers? So it's just that easy, huh? What if those kids' mother is taking classes while dad's working to get them by? So he's a loser. Screw The Coz and his crap. And to hell with that show he made that I used to like before his rants. He offers NOTHING! Just like those dumbasses at the recent Black Covenant meeting hosted by Tavis Smiley. They offer NOTHING! So I won't listen nor respect what they say.
I had it better than my parents did. My kids have it better than I did, although we're still struggling. My goal is to make sure they have it better, and don't make excuses.
Still, Cosby's rants would mean more to me if he were also investing substantial money in reading programs, in scholarship funds... well, but he does do that, doesn't he?
I dunno. Maybe it's more like this: sometimes you need a hand up, and sometimes you need a kick in the ass. And by "you" I mean everybody. Which is why I can't just blow off Cosby, although at the same time I can't view it as negatively as Tyrone. (And like I said, partly I'm just an outsider looking in, and the only thing that REALLY pleases me is that I'm sick of hearing why my supposed racism is keeping the black man down. Really, I'm REALLY tired of that.)
I do object--mildly--to the assertion that it's white record company execs getting rich off selling gangsta culture. Increasingly we're seeing more and more black record company execs, blacks controlling their own lables, producing their own materials, etc. Hell, did I just say "increasingly?" Isn't that more and more just normal?
The youth of our great nation have problems. Some by parents hands, some not. I work with the youth everyday (volunteer). I hear it all from white, black, and Hispanic youth. Even the "non-gangsta one" (can't believe I wrote that). Work needs to be done on everyone.
And I'm spent.... :D
Cosby makes a speech that includes:
They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk: Why you ain't, Where you is, What he drive, Where he stay, Where he work, Who you be... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk.
So he got hell for it in the black community and he also got hell for speaking out against 'ebonics' in an Oakland School District proposal.
Seems the man cannot do anything right. Yet, he left high school without diploma, served in the US military where he got his GED, went back to college and eventually got a PHD in Education.
Somehow the man doesn't meet the standards of T Steels provincialism. So I disagree with T Steel but I do see he now spells 'stately' without a capital letter. I do not think I need to tippy-toe around T Steels race.
Screw The Coz and his crap. (T Steels) is a far less memorable quotation than the one noted above.
As they say in one of the asian wisdom traditions:
The true teacher only points the way.
And I forgot to add:
Academy Awards Scoreboard:
Three Six Mafia: One
Martin Scorsese: Zero
A company has a moral responsibility. To those who cry "Profits to the Stockholders" is the only responsibility, I can only say that a single-value ethical system leads to stupidities and horrors...see the Samurai with their ethic of obedience no matter what. Google and Cisco for their China trades, and the gangsta rap record companies should be shamed and shunned by decent human beings until they repent.
Its awful difficult to push against a whole culture on your own, especially when you're a kid, and you think the craziness that surrounds you is normal.
That said, I do believe in the More than a 100% responsibility/blame allocation system.
Person is 100% responsible.
So are Parents.
Church is 70%.
School is 90%
Media Environment 80%
Government Laws and Programs which tilt the playing field in some good and some bad ways 90%
Well, thats 530% responsibility.
So to answer Mr. Kirwin's question. Never. Not exactly, anyways.
And McKiernan, I'm going to be a true teacher and point the way. You ready? Here I go:
Black people in America (as a whole) need to fully embrace that they are Americans (if if some arseheads think not) so we will approach all issues in our community from a fully American point of view.
I'm not telling my fellow black folks to drop unique cultural behaviors, I'm telling them to realize that the poor in our community behave like to poor in other communities. That our problems are America's problems (we're one big ol' family) and that we can help ALL AMERICANS out by offering solutions for Americans. And those solutions are not wrapped up in government (Hurricane Katrina government issues affected all colors). Just doing that would help improve our communities: the willingness to embrace all and work together even if some people are resistant. Insular thinking will not help my fellow black folks.
And I'm not one of those black folks that say "don't air our dirty laundry". Whateva! We live around white people EVERYDAY. Just like we SEE THEM, they SEE US. 'Nuff said.
One way is to insist that the way of speaking they grew up with is "wrong" and "stupid" and "illiterate," and to constantly correct them when they speak it. Experience seems to show that a small minority of students will respond to that and comply, but that the majority will grow to simply despise their teachers and will passively resist them in all things and drop out at the first opportunity.
As the old saying goes, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." While it is certainly arguable that the Oakland school board acted in a hamhanded and foolish manner, this does not invalidate the notion that there may be much more creative ways to train kids who grow up speaking African American Vernacular to learn the standard English that will help them succeed in business.